Dealer asked for ADM to move up list

[TXEMIRA]

sure.. here is one.. COMPLETE visibility to the lists, where people were in line and maybe someone other than the individual dealers manage the phone calls to confirm orders. It's 700 phone calls for god sake.. I have a call center that makes 4000 calls per week with less than 35 people.. Not hard.

Lotus could have easily handled that with a little technology and an outsourced call center. it's a simple database and maybe a third party to manage the lists as they were created from the dealers. The issue here is all dealers got to make their own rules on deposits, how they "tracked" it etc. They "registered" them but all that served was so Lotus could gauge interest.

We have no way to know where we are ACTUALLY in the list with the dealer.. We have no way to know if anyone ahead of us ACTUALLY dropped out (if they even did).

Unified Registration process
Third Party Verification and Confirmation
Unified Deposit Amounts and process

Pretty fricken easy to me..

1. Customer calls or visits dealer
2. Dealer Registers while customer is there and takes first Deposit
3. Dealer and Customer sign binding purchase agreement (legally locking in price)
4. Customer gets actual Confirmation number and email stating where they are in line.
5. Lotus Allocates however they want to each dealer (dont care)
6. Third Party starts calling each customer and letting them know they have a car.
7. Customer decides if they want the car
8a. If yes / Second Deposit (non refundable) is taken from third party and customer is informed on next steps
8b. If no / Customer first deposit it refunded and the spot is now open and the next person in line is called.

Overall not that hard to manage the lists and not let the dealers use the lists and shift them around to the highest bidder.

We could curate the list here. At one point @TomE was putting together some data just to get insights on timing and quantities.

We could put a US list together from this forum and others fairly quickly.

OR

Just wait. Once people get their cars they’ll spill the beans on all the info.
Then we will know who did shady sh!t.

 

[4GIV8M3]

@Nova I don't and thats why I have an incredible group of family, friends and buisness partners around me. Anyway, pointless conversation to have. Just hope it influences others out there to try and do the right thing. Personally, I stand up against things I believe are wrong and I don't care what the sacrifice is because others before me have made much greater.

 

[Maverick1]

I personally would never ever pay ADM to a car dealership for any car, as it would leave a very bitter taste in my mouth every time I got into the car.

 

[Porter]

sure.. here is one.. COMPLETE visibility to the lists, where people were in line and maybe someone other than the individual dealers manage the phone calls to confirm orders. It's 700 phone calls for god sake.. I have a call center that makes 4000 calls per week with less than 35 people.. Not hard.

Lotus could have easily handled that with a little technology and an outsourced call center. it's a simple database and maybe a third party to manage the lists as they were created from the dealers. The issue here is all dealers got to make their own rules on deposits, how they "tracked" it etc. They "registered" them but all that served was so Lotus could gauge interest.

We have no way to know where we are ACTUALLY in the list with the dealer.. We have no way to know if anyone ahead of us ACTUALLY dropped out (if they even did).

Unified Registration process
Third Party Verification and Confirmation
Unified Deposit Amounts and process

Pretty fricken easy to me..

1. Customer calls or visits dealer
2. Dealer Registers while customer is there and takes first Deposit
3. Dealer and Customer sign binding purchase agreement (legally locking in price)
4. Customer gets actual Confirmation number and email stating where they are in line.
5. Lotus Allocates however they want to each dealer (dont care)
6. Third Party starts calling each customer and letting them know they have a car.
7. Customer decides if they want the car
8a. If yes / Second Deposit (non refundable) is taken from third party and customer is informed on next steps
8b. If no / Customer first deposit it refunded and the spot is now open and the next person in line is called.

Overall not that hard to manage the lists and not let the dealers use the lists and shift them around to the highest bidder.

^^^^^^ this guy gets it. 100%

 

[Porter]

That sounds like price-fixing, which is generally illegal in the US. As a rule, parties may not collude to set pricing. Even with the so-called MAP pricing, that only affects advertised prices. Dealers are generally free to sell a product at whatever price they want. Even there, violations of MAP must be addressed with unilateral policies on the part of the manufacturer - they cannot appear to work with the dealer on MAP compliance.

Again, I'm generally against regulations that restrict private party agreements. I feel like a manufacturer should be able to dictate the price that their products are sold at. But the reality is the reality, and we have to expect that people will behave in their own self best interest.

Quick call-back to this earlier post.... I replied to this previously regarding the price fixing thing, but wanted to add some detail about the legalities surrounding manufacturer-imposed limitations on retailer pricing structures. It's absolutely legal for manufacturers to do that, and also for them to impose penalties on dealers who violate those structures. It's actually encouraged by the regulations in cases where it benefits consumers.

Federal Trade Commission: Manufacturer Imposed Requirements
"Reasonable price, territory, and customer restrictions on dealers are legal. Manufacturer-imposed requirements can benefit consumers by increasing competition among different brands (interbrand competition) even while reducing competition among dealers in the same brand (intrabrand competition). For instance, an agreement between a manufacturer and dealer to set maximum (or "ceiling") prices prevents dealers from charging a non-competitive price."

See more: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/com...ws/dealings-supply-chain/manufacturer-imposed

 

[Nova]

@Nova I don't and thats why I have an incredible group of family, friends and buisness partners around me. Anyway, pointless conversation to have. Just hope it influences others out there to try and do the right thing. Personally, I stand up against things I believe are wrong and I don't care what the sacrifice is because others before me have made much greater.

Well, isn't it wrong to pollute the environment by buying a gasoline-powered car in this day and age? Why haven't you donated all your money to charities to fight child hunger - what have you done to take a stand against child hunger? The last time you saw someone break a traffic law, did you call the cops on him? Did you follow him while on the phone with the police to make sure that he gets caught? If not, how did take a stand? All of these are rhetorical questions. You don't have to answer them. If you feel this conversation is pointless, that's your prerogative. I'm just pointing out that people who wave around their morality like a badge of honor are often hypocritical.

 

[Nova]

Quick call-back to this earlier post.... I replied to this previously regarding the price fixing thing, but wanted to add some detail about the legalities surrounding manufacturer-imposed limitations on retailer pricing structures. It's absolutely legal for manufacturers to do that, and also for them to impose penalties on dealers who violate those structures. It's actually encouraged by the regulations in cases where it benefits consumers.

Federal Trade Commission: Manufacturer Imposed Requirements
"Reasonable price, territory, and customer restrictions on dealers are legal. Manufacturer-imposed requirements can benefit consumers by increasing competition among different brands (interbrand competition) even while reducing competition among dealers in the same brand (intrabrand competition). For instance, an agreement between a manufacturer and dealer to set maximum (or "ceiling") prices prevents dealers from charging a non-competitive price."

See more: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/com...ws/dealings-supply-chain/manufacturer-imposed

Thanks for following up on this. I wasn't aware that a maximum price was allowed. Again, my default position is that I am against regulatory restrictions. Manufacturers should be able to set whatever policy they want with their dealers or eliminate them altogether.

 

[SloAlfa]

^^^^^^ this guy gets it. 100%

lol... well my development team and call centers are on call if Lotus wants to talk.

 

[4GIV8M3]

@Nova Integrity is consistency in thought, emotions and actions. It means to be honest. Whereas morality is about right and wrong at personal level. Morals are a road map to how one should behave. I said I have integrity, not that I'm morally perfect.

 

[Nova]

Cheers to all.

 

[TomE]

sure.. here is one.. COMPLETE visibility to the lists, where people were in line and maybe someone other than the individual dealers manage the phone calls to confirm orders. It's 700 phone calls for god sake.. I have a call center that makes 4000 calls per week with less than 35 people.. Not hard.

Lotus could have easily handled that with a little technology and an outsourced call center. it's a simple database and maybe a third party to manage the lists as they were created from the dealers. The issue here is all dealers got to make their own rules on deposits, how they "tracked" it etc. They "registered" them but all that served was so Lotus could gauge interest.

We have no way to know where we are ACTUALLY in the list with the dealer.. We have no way to know if anyone ahead of us ACTUALLY dropped out (if they even did).

Unified Registration process
Third Party Verification and Confirmation
Unified Deposit Amounts and process

Pretty fricken easy to me..

1. Customer calls or visits dealer
2. Dealer Registers while customer is there and takes first Deposit
3. Dealer and Customer sign binding purchase agreement (legally locking in price)
4. Customer gets actual Confirmation number and email stating where they are in line.
5. Lotus Allocates however they want to each dealer (dont care)
6. Third Party starts calling each customer and letting them know they have a car.
7. Customer decides if they want the car
8a. If yes / Second Deposit (non refundable) is taken from third party and customer is informed on next steps
8b. If no / Customer first deposit it refunded and the spot is now open and the next person in line is called.

Overall not that hard to manage the lists and not let the dealers use the lists and shift them around to the highest bidder.

The only problem with this seemingly simple solution is Lotus can't impose it on the dealers unless they all agree to it, which they won't.

Lotus can't take over the customer or the customer/dealer buying process. Lotus can't enforce that every dealer use a particular type of purchase agreement with the customer (eg one that guarantees no markups). Lotus can require a minimum deposit per car from the dealer but can't control what level of deposit the dealer requests from the customer. Lotus can't force the dealers to work with a third party as part of the process. Lotus can't force dealers to give cars to people based on the date order they placed their deposits. Lotus can't tell dealers how to handle gaps due to cancellations.

There are some sanctions Lotus can apply, but they generally get applied to the following year's allocation not the immediate problem.

Lotus can and have captured information on deposits, which also relies on the dealers recording it correctly, passing it to Lotus and not making up dummy deposits for their own account. Which some have done, but it's very hard to find and prove.

 

[darkling]

why i paid cash on my deposit the trail is real easy to track

 

[Racer X]

I suppose walking away is an alternative, but I do want the car. And hence my question if anyone else has been asked. Making up numbers, maybe they only got 20 cars for 2022 and #10 dropped out and he's asking everyone >#21 to buy into it. I didn't ask for that kind of clarity. I do agree though that #21 on the list should then get the car at MSRP.

He did clarify I can stay put in line and get my car at MSRP.

It does smell nefarious though - that he's willing to prioritize an ADM customer, and hence push an earlier order into 2023.

I would add that if there was complete transparency... like I was actually paying the ADM in exchange for an order# / allocation with Lotus corporate, I probably would have bitten. But the offer was just to move up in the opaque "dealer list".

Anyways, it seems like I got my answer: I seem to be the only guy who has gotten this call.

I would never support a dealer that would do this. I’ve never paid an ADM, nor would I ever. I’ve flown halfway around the country to buy a car for a better price. A $300 plane ticket can save you thousands.

 

[SloAlfa]

The only problem with this seemingly simple solution is Lotus can't impose it on the dealers unless they all agree to it, which they won't.

Lotus can't take over the customer or the customer/dealer buying process. Lotus can't enforce that every dealer use a particular type of purchase agreement with the customer (eg one that guarantees no markups). Lotus can require a minimum deposit per car from the dealer but can't control what level of deposit the dealer requests from the customer. Lotus can't force the dealers to work with a third party as part of the process. Lotus can't force dealers to give cars to people based on the date order they placed their deposits. Lotus can't tell dealers how to handle gaps due to cancellations.

There are some sanctions Lotus can apply, but they generally get applied to the following year's allocation not the immediate problem.

Lotus can and have captured information on deposits, which also relies on the dealers recording it correctly, passing it to Lotus and not making up dummy deposits for their own account. Which some have done, but it's very hard to find and prove.

I get it.. you are knowledgable. I think we have seen that even people like you that get "direct" info from Lotus is not always correct, probably because Lotus does not even know what they are doing. I am also not sure you (or any of us) are an expert on US consumer laws, dealer agreements/laws and what the dealers would agree to and what they wouldn't. I dont think any of us have the level of knowledge.

You asked for an opinion and you were interested in thoughts how they could have handled it better.. I gave one off-the-cuff idea as a rough thought as you requested. I'm sure anyone can poke holes in the idea and be critical but the I do know one thing. I thought about it for 5 min and Lotus had how many years/months to plan for this? Lotus could and should have done better, period.

Bottom line, we love to complain but I will still buy a Lotus Emira, I will love it and enjoy it. It's always easy to sit on the sidelines and be critical, which I am guilty of. lol.. Lotus needs to put on their big boy pants and hire some people that have a clue and get organized. It's not like this car was designed, announced, and launched in 2 weeks.

I will patiently wait for my Emira and looking forward to sharing my many years of ownership with everyone here. @TomE don't take my reply out of context, i'm not picking a fight with you at all, you have been a very valuable source of info on this forum and I will continue to wait on updates from you and others on the forum.

 

[Porter]

This seems like a good point to suggest a group hug.

 

[rstower]

I recently went to a Lotus dealer in a big midwestern US city and was told I had to pay $20k over MSRP for the Emira FE. My first experience with a Lotus dealer and I found this thread after trying to see how common this is. I'm in my early 30s, my first and only car I own thus far is my daily performance tesla model s ludicrous I purchased several years ago, which was a completely hassle free process. Now looking around for a car for some track day fun. Lotus say they want to attract a new customer base, but honestly, I neither have the time for, and can't be bothered putting up with such dealers. I'll help everyone else here by reducing demand and walking elsewhere

 

[JPS_67]

Correct on the direct model. Lotus didn’t have the bandwidth to tackle this at the same time as totally overhauling the UK dealer network and distribution model. It’s a much more complex issue in the US.

Current info being shared on allocations and timeframes is already based on second shift starting by end of this year. They now have to work out if they add a THIRD shift. Demand has been completely unprecedented - and for a car with no press drive reviews yet. Amazing, but also of course frustrating for people keen to get cars and not wanting to wait too long.

Well unprecedented, I am not sure. If my information is correct the introduction of the Elise was also overbooked. There was a trade going on about productionslots. Ppl sold them for the equivalent of 5000 US dollar at that time. I see a similar thing happening in the near future.

 

[TomE]

Well unprecedented, I am not sure. If my information is correct the introduction of the Elise was also overbooked. There was a trade going on about productionslots. Ppl sold them for the equivalent of 5000 US dollar at that time. I see a similar thing happening in the near future.

You’re right, there are similarities. Differences include the Elise waiting list largely happening after the production car was unveiled, as there was no pre-prod reveal.

Plus Lotus had no capacity scale up plan for the Elise, whereas for Emira they can double then triple capacity, but even doing that will still have an 18-24 month waiting list.

So demand is a much bigger step change versus forecast than it was on Elise. I expect we’ll see waiting lists go over 2 years soon after press reviews. And yes, that’ll mean places in the queue being sold and premiums for cars being flipped after delivery.