EV Poll - Do you want a sports car EV

[SJR202]

EV isnt for me in a sports car. At a push something like a Range Rover / Luxury car it has some place (though I'd still prefer the sound of the V8 diesel over EV). But I've not been excited by a single EV yet. 2 dimensional.
The only think EV makes me feel is disappointment - 1) they're killing off the ICE/cars I love 2) so many stunning designs are being released but with a kitchen appliance powering it...

 

[Maverick1]

Isn't a sports car supposed to stir your emotion and be engaging and involving and most importantly FUN for the driver.
To stimulate all your senses making every Drive a memorable one.
The only EV I am interested in is one where I can sit there and either sleep, web surf, talk on the phone and let it drive me to my destination.

 

[Tailslides]

Chris Harris said of the ID3 and ID4, "they are like dementers, sucking all the fun out of drivers", the same applies to all EV's for me. Maybe one day they will be better but right now nothing appeals.

 

[frazzer]

have an i3s, it's fun to drive. Emotive? not really, but it seems a little premature to conclude an EV can't stir the soul

 

[Pegasi]

Maybe one day they will be better but right now nothing appeals.

I agree with all that's been said on this thread. Here are 5 points. Disclaimer, I have never driven an EV nor have I ever ridden in one. I am not familiar with all specs of current models and what they can do.

1. I agree with this post. As of now, I don't think an enthusiasts sports car EV exists. This thread was mainly about what could they develop and would it interest you. (If you have one, see disclaimer above!)

2. It's been said that once you remove the engine, transmission, and gas tank designers have a whole new platform to work on. This is what has me intrigued.

3. Not all sports cars check all boxes. Mazda Miata, great handling, not an enhanced engine sound. Dodge Challenger, huge power, great sound, not known for handling. These cars have had huge success and are legendary. I know you can make changes to exhaust and handling in the aftermarket.

4. A lot on this forum has been said about the seat height of the Emira. A new Lotus EV Elise may have an interior great for those that are 6'5" but be smaller than the Emira.

5. Out of 48 votes, 28 have said yes to EV or are on the fence. Can I get some help please in this debate.

 

[Cutting42]

I have a Tesla Model 3 Performance as a daily driver currently (LOL). It is a company car so bought for mainly tax reasons but also because I like new stuff and gadgets. I also have a M235i which I also love even if it is slower in almost every way to the Tesla and range is not much better although I accept you can refuel quicker. The BM is my choice for a sunday morning rip being one of the great engines and loving the interaction with the car which is why the answer at the moment is no, I don't want an EV sports car.

Like it or lump it, EV's are the future of daily drivers and I really like mine and what it does. It is comfortable, roomy, takes 5 and luggage in comfort and is the most easy car ti drive ever. One pedal driving most of the time and auto functions that mostly work do take the sting out of long motorway drives.

But I will always have a sports petrol car in my ownership

 

[LotusAmateur]

@Pegasi you have asked the question for the right reasons and as one of the 8 (so far!)who will definitely get an EV Sports car when the right one comes along, let me try to balance the discussion.

I believe that the current crop of EVs being developed are a radically new application of tech (yeah, yeah, I know - batteries are old tech) being lazily deployed in incremental design. Most traditional car companies releasing EVs are either in a mad scramble to catch up with Tesla or because the govt and investors are putting pressure on them. Their development focus has been on the batteries, drivetrains, in car tech and autonomous driving, much less on the rest of the driving experience. Some focus on the crazy acceleration and straight-line speed; much less on handling, rethinking the form factor and broader design under new contraints (no ICE components, no fuel tank, chunky batteries, motors, etc).

The design and engagement rethink will take some time in coming, and we will also need to rethink the engagement we want. Reminds me of the debate in the early days of the iPhone - it was old tech and not a great phone but a great design and execution. Many resisted at first but then, the whole industry followed. And the audio experience also got better with time but our expectation of the phone changed. Maybe our expectation of the sports EV engagement will also evolve (beyond the hairdryer on wheels that we have today). And as someone who owns (and loves the engagement of) an Alpine A110 and hope to do the same with an Emira, I feel great that they are working together on a sports EV - maybe that will be the one, or maybe one sometime later ....

 

[TomE]

Watch this from about 4:30 onwards:


If anyone can make an EV sportscar “for the drivers”, Lotus and Gav’s ride and handling team can.

Currently that means a £2m hypercar. But imagine how that learning flows down to an EV sportscar with a target to be mass market, no heavier than an Emira, 300+ mile range, sub 3s 0-60 and Lotus handling…

 

[Maverick1]

I guess they could always pipe in fake engine sounds and an exhaust note.

 

[Zardoz]

I think I can speak from experience. I am an early EV adopter. I have already owned (2) Tesla Model S's. My current DD is Porsche Taycan 4S. I have owned it for 1 1/2 years with about 18K on the odometer. RIght now, this is the closest to an accessible EV sports car. Verdict, Is it fast? Oh yes,
Is it nimble, compared to the Tesla, yup. You can certainly feel the mass of it cornering & braking. Build quality is excellent and I have no issues. Range is mediocre at best averaging about 220 mile range at 85% charge. Does it feel like a Porsche? not really, not compared to gone but not forgotten 993 owned for 10 years. I have not driven a water cooled 911 so I have no reference on that. It is pretty much soulless. I never really feel engaged driving it, In short it has no "Porscheness". I do not think future EV sports cars will be as engaging as ICE cars especially with a manual transmission. So, That's why Emira. I hope one of the last great driving ICE cars at a decent price point.
I was originally looking for another 993 or 964, now trading north of 100K for cars with 100,000 miles. Absurd.
Nothing as nice as a new car warranty. Come on Lotus, start pumping these beauties out, I'm waiting with an open checkbook.

 

[Lankan]

For those who are interested, the following may provide a hint as to the future EVs from Lotus:

Lotus partners with Britishvolt on new EV tech​

"A key objective of this partnership will be producing fast-charging batteries, as well as optimising their energy density to reduce weight - which will be essential to something as sleek and low as the new sports car hinted at in Lotus's design sketch."

The above excerpt is telling, and encouraging at the same time since the one thing that blights all EVs to date is the weight of the batteries used to power them.

 

[TomE]

The other encouraging thing is it looks like they're borrowing styling cues from the S1 Esprit

 

[4GIV8M3]

Realistically if you follow the EV space you know Lotus will get crushed and will simply not compete when the time comes. Personally I love an EV for daily purposes and wouldn't be interested in one as a sports car, ever. I am sure it will be fast, just like a tuned 4 cylinder emira. No interested in either.

 

[Pegasi]

Realistically if you follow the EV space you know Lotus will get crushed and will simply not compete when the time comes. Personally I love an EV for daily purposes and wouldn't be interested in one as a sports car, ever. I am sure it will be fast, just like a tuned 4 cylinder emira. No interested in either.

How do you classify the Evija? The were able to make the world's most powerful EV, as least for now.

 

[TomE]

Realistically if you follow the EV space you know Lotus will get crushed and will simply not compete when the time comes. Personally I love an EV for daily purposes and wouldn't be interested in one as a sports car, ever. I am sure it will be fast, just like a tuned 4 cylinder emira. No interested in either.

I don't follow EV stuff closely, so interested in your reasoning on this. Lotus has got a flexible EV architecture, a 4-model plan with first one about to be launched, an EV hypercar being delivered to customers from June, a new $1bn factory, 3 new technology centres and access to EV work by other Geely group companies (Polestar, Volvo etc). Obviously all the majors are investing in EV too, but isn't there space for Lotus?

 

[Pete]

Personally I won’t be considering an EV sports car until solid state batteries are available, due to the improvements this will bring primarily in terms of weight, but also to power and range. Seems like this will be available before the end of the decade which will give us all some time to enjoy our beautiful Emira’s!

 

[4GIV8M3]

@TomE to summarize it comes down to profit margins. I could list a hundred reason from complete lack of vertical or even horizontal integration to the manufacturing process which isn't in production but is already 5 years behind what a company like Tesla is doing. All of them will never be changed and as technology advances they will fall further behind. To put it as analogy Lotus is on rocket and that rocket is traveling slower and is further behind so it will never catch up.

 

[~el~jefe~]

I would only drive a car 10 years from now that is -20% the weight of the car I drive now. Not +2500 lbs. Yes, the polestar is 2800lbs more than my current car. My current car also has 50-80 miles more range of driving easily than the 5200lbs "sports car" . my car could probably loop the globe if it weighed 2800lbs extra of fuel. Batteries are 1980's technology at best. This is just social pressure and radical ideology, coupled with China pushing to dominate manufacturing of very simple vehicles.

now that i look at the numbers, in winter, I think my MX-5 might have 100 more mile range with barely 11 gallon tank. nice. EV = POS

 

[KusaKusa]

@TomE to summarize it comes down to profit margins. I could list a hundred reason from complete lack of vertical or even horizontal integration to the manufacturing process which isn't in production but is already 5 years behind what a company like Tesla is doing. All of them will never be changed and as technology advances they will fall further behind. To put it as analogy Lotus is on rocket and that rocket is traveling slower and is further behind so it will never catch up.

As you mention, most of Tesla's advantages are very focused in profit margins for mass manufacturing. These come from vertical integration reducing middle men, low number of models with many shared parts, being a step ahead in setting up factories and battery sourcing, "gigacasting", etc. Pricing competitive advantage matters less at the $80k+ price point and up that Lotus lives at, where prices and margins between companies can vary significantly due to less price sensitivity in customers (see Porsche). As an example, Lotus had a ton of technically inefficient processes: extrusion requires a lot of assembly vs. stamping; adhesive bonding requires a wait time vs. welding; in general, Lotus relied more on hand built assembly vs. automated lines with product sharing like Porsche's 911 and 718. Yet Lotus could still offer similar prices. Not sure how Tesla are horizontally integrating as you say because they aren't buying out competition.

Tesla is perceived more advanced in R&D vs other OEMs because they can deploy their technologies faster. This is because they had a head start and because other OEMs can't change their "ships" direction fast enough. With batteries (4680 and silicon) and software I think they're actually ahead, but on motors and other fronts they're just faster to mass production with an uncompromised product. I think the power outputs of Rimac, Lotus' Evija, and Lucid (Lucid overall in other areas as well) demonstrate that.

Lotus has very few assets and workforce, meaning they can pivot to EVs much faster and effectively than Volkswagen, Ford, and GM with educating their engineering, not having to reuse existing ICE parts/platforms, and not having to rework existing factories. Lotus has demonstrated with EVs to show they have experience to potentially catch up or keep up. They've committed to a full EV transition and investment earlier than most OEMs after they were acquired by Geely, and they learned through the Evija. The Evija developed their experience with high powered motors, batteries that use high voltages for large power draw and fast charging, and the electrical architecture to support all of those. They can lean on the resources of Polestar, Geely's Chinese brands, and Nio for R&D and larger scale production.

In the same way Tesla had an advantage building an EV platform from scratch, Lotus is building an EV platform but can also greater optimize vehicle performance with a "midengine" battery without needing to compromise for other vehicle and passenger configurations like the skateboard battery requires. Lotus is also working with suppliers to develop products (batteries/motors) that best match their use case while also developing the platform in parallel to best accommodate those products holistically. And Lotus do some things to make a better product at the production quantities they work at. As a good example, aluminum extrusion and bonding are not good for mass production, but they're optimal for structural rigidity and minimizing weight.

Lotus has been working quietly on their EV backend and investing millions for years. If they're observing the market and think they can make a good/competitive product, I believe in them.

 

[TomE]

@TomE to summarize it comes down to profit margins. I could list a hundred reason from complete lack of vertical or even horizontal integration to the manufacturing process which isn't in production but is already 5 years behind what a company like Tesla is doing. All of them will never be changed and as technology advances they will fall further behind. To put it as analogy Lotus is on rocket and that rocket is traveling slower and is further behind so it will never catch up.

Thanks. But couldn't you apply the same argument to ICE cars? There's room for Lotus in that market - OK not always very profitably, but they've survived. 60+ million cars are built every year and Lotus only aims to build tens of thousands, perhaps a hundred thousand at best. They've designed their operating model to work with that - be part of a large group and access expertise within it, use partners for engineering and supply, focus on a few key differentiators, scale your manufacturing for the target volume.

In EV, one of the challenges for incumbents is pivoting - re-purposing design, validation, production etc from ICE to EV. Tesla has had the advantage of starting from a blank canvas and creating an operating model based around how they want to do things, not some industry view of how to build cars. Lotus have some similar advantages, as they are building new factories specifically for flexibility and to build EVs. For example the new Hethel factory has very advanced assembly, paint and QA capabilities. Lotus also have a lot of experience of working as part of an ecosystem of partners and suppliers, which is going to be necessary in an area where technology is advancing quickly.

I should probably pay more attention to what others are doing in this field. It's going to be interesting to see who does well.