Factory Tour Thread

[JohnHoward]

I can’t imagine homologation would be a major hurdle for them as the power train hasn’t really changed in a decade or so.

Thanks. It just seems strange that the manual got Type Approval several months ago and they are due to build my auto (and others on here) next month and this is still outstanding.

 

[Crown]

I was on the tour back in May when things were no more than half completed test cars .. I’m hoping you will see the place buzzing with activity. They told me when production is ramped up , a car will roll of production line every 17 minutes .
I’ve been an i4 from the start . A thoroughly modern engine and I think will be the best suited to such a modern car . I’m still hoping my initial date of November 2022 then Q1 2023 does not end up being Q2.

 

[VL3X]

I’ll be doing a tour this week. I’ve not kept up with this thread but will try to read through to see if there are things that have yet to be completely picked apart already.

If someone wanted to put a list of questions together for me that would be great. I’d do it, but that seems like work and I’m on vacation lol.

Yeah, ask if they'll flash the 430HP tune on mine before it gets loaded up for delivery.

Seriously though, can you ask about the navigation on the driver's screen? I'm wondering if that nav map is different than the Android Auto nav I'll want to use when connecting my phone. From what I've gathered from the owners manual, it seems like that driver screen nav is some built in system which I believe uses Android Automotive anyway. It's just confusing to me why manufacturers even offer their own navigation when we all have smart phones.

 

[Porter]

Thanks. It just seems strange that the manual got Type Approval several months ago and they are due to build my auto (and others on here) next month and this is still outstanding.

In the US we still haven't seen anything listed on the NHTSA website for the Emira, which is unusual for a car that's supposed to start delivery in a few months. I haven't checked EPA yet.

 

[Porter]

Yeah, ask if they'll flash the 430HP tune on mine before it gets loaded up for delivery.

Seriously though, can you ask about the navigation on the driver's screen? I'm wondering if that nav map is different than the Android Auto nav I'll want to use when connecting my phone. From what I've gathered from the owners manual, it seems like that driver screen nav is some built in system which I believe uses Android Automotive anyway. It's just confusing to me why manufacturers even offer their own navigation when we all have smart phones.

Android Automotive as a platform and Android Auto (hybrid screen mirroring) from a phone use slightly different UI. The full Android Automotive OS will likely give the superior user experience from a pure UX/UI perspective. There are a LOT of different variations on the Android Auto (phone) UI depending on the vehicle, so they have to build that system with compatibility in mind rather than high levels of optimization. Android Automotive is the reverse, because the implementing auto manufacturer can tweak it a bit to get the fluid user experience they want to achieve based on the particular user input mechanisms they have built into the car.

To your comment regarding Google Maps differences between the two platforms... they both use the same underlying maps and nav logic, so the essential experience should be similar, but there will definitely be some visual differences in the way that it's presented. Also I'm not sure how deep the user Google Account integration is on Android Automotive compared to Android Auto (which is natively tied to the user on the phone) so it remains to be seen how individually customized the navigation timing, place recommendations, etc are on the car-based AA system.

 

[Rudolph]

I can’t imagine homologation would be a major hurdle for them as the power train hasn’t really changed in a decade or so.

I’ll try to make notes while I’m there. Might have to bring a notebook because I’m unsure if they will let me bring my phone inside the factory. I honestly need a list of items to look for so I can do a proper write up afterwards. I saw the one at Lotus Hauese last week (just outside of Frankfurt) and it was extremely hard to stay objective lol.

Thanks, I’ve been enjoying it very much!

* * * * *
Rather simple I fear:
The V6 manual emissions for the Emira with it's 400hp are up to the new allowed limits.
The V6 auto in the Evora had higher emission as the manual.........
This fact will today for the Emira auto a decisive hurdle, difficult to overcome.

The undermentioned figures give an indication for the reason both why the Emira V6 manual is limited to only 400 hp and why it gives problems with the V6 auto
EVORA 400 (MANUAL)................................CO2 emissions........225 g/km.
EVORA 400 (AUTOMATIC)........................CO2 emissions........230 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (MANUAL).............CO2 emissions........234 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (AUTOMATIC).....CO2 emissions........247 g/km

 

[JohnHoward]

In the US we still haven't seen anything listed on the NHTSA website for the Emira, which is unusual for a car that's supposed to start delivery in a few months. I haven't checked EPA yet.

It seems that Type Approval is delayed for the auto and this is apparent in the UK as you can't get an insurance quote for auto, whilst you can for manual.

 

[JohnHoward]

* * * * *
Very simple.
The V6 manual emissions with it's 400hp are up to the new allowed limits.
The V6 auto in the Evora had higher emission as the manual.........
This fact will today for the Emira auto a decisive hurdle, difficult to overcome.

The undermentioned figures give an indication for the reason both why the Emira V6 manual is limited to only 400 hp and why it gives problems with the V6 auto
EVORA 400 (MANUAL)................................CO2 emissions........225 g/km.
EVORA 400 (AUTOMATIC)........................CO2 emissions........230 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (MANUAL).............CO2 emissions........234 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (AUTOMATIC).....CO2 emissions........247 g/km

Thanks, so what does the mean for the options that Lotus have. Can they 'dial down' the auto somehow, but does this leave them with a reduced bhp when compared to the manual? I'm not really sure how these kind of things work with tuning and so on, I would be very grateful if you could kindly explain what the options are that are open to them to meet the latest regulations.

 

[Porter]

It's just confusing to me why manufacturers even offer their own navigation when we all have smart phones.

To answer your last comment since I didn't really address it above... using the full Android Automotive OS essentially turns the car's ICE user experience into a "cell phone" from a map data and freshness/relevance perspective, meaning that it's connected full-time and constantly up to date as a fundamental assumption of the platform.

The lack of this native (always-updated, always-on) behavior, or charging silly money over the top for connectivity for a not-great and often outdated map product, is why people abandoned car-based nav and started using their phones instead in recent years. That's why hybrid screen-mirroring systems like Apple CarPlay and Android Auto became a big deal. People want the map and the navigation to reflect what's happening in the real world... we're talking up to the ~month for info about searchable destinations and literally up to the minute for live traffic nav data.

This modern, more deeply online approach to car ICE (using Android Automotive as the device OS) brings that set of network-connected assumptions into the car's underlying user experience in a way that should be very powerful. And the same for media playback. Why link your phone, fiddle with BT connections, wires, etc when you can just play from Spotify or Tidal or whatever right on the car natively with full streaming data? Doing it this way, there's no need to think it through or "convince" the thing to work, the apps are native and the media stream handling is native so the quality can be prioritized in a way that's near-impossible with any of the linked-phone approaches.

In this native OS scenario, if you're well supported in your use cases by the apps available on Android Automotive, then the Bluetooth connection is then used just for hands-free calling, which is what BT actually does well. And then wireless charging of the phone suddenly makes a lot more sense, where it really didn't for the hybrid screen-mirroring systems which mostly required a cable for the best user experience anyway.

 

[Rudolph]

Thanks, so what does the mean for the options that Lotus have. Can they 'dial down' the auto somehow, but does this leave them with a reduced bhp when compared to the manual? I'm not really sure how these kind of things work with tuning and so on, I would be very grateful if you could kindly explain what the options are that are open to them to meet the latest regulations.

* * * * *
I am no expert, however think they have to take more time for a adapted routing of the exhaust and the ECU programming for the autobox steering.
I do not think they will lower the 400 hp, this would be a disaster, therefore they need more time to solve this problem.
I believe that they finally will succeed.

 

[TomE]

* * * * *
Rather simple I fear:
The V6 manual emissions for the Emira with it's 400hp are up to the new allowed limits.
The V6 auto in the Evora had higher emission as the manual.........
This fact will today for the Emira auto a decisive hurdle, difficult to overcome.

The undermentioned figures give an indication for the reason both why the Emira V6 manual is limited to only 400 hp and why it gives problems with the V6 auto
EVORA 400 (MANUAL)................................CO2 emissions........225 g/km.
EVORA 400 (AUTOMATIC)........................CO2 emissions........230 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (MANUAL).............CO2 emissions........234 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (AUTOMATIC).....CO2 emissions........247 g/km

And to add the Emira manual confirmed figures to the list to illustrate the challenge for the auto:

EVORA 400 (MANUAL)................................CO2 emissions........225 g/km.
EVORA 400 (AUTOMATIC)........................CO2 emissions........230 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (MANUAL).............CO2 emissions........234 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (AUTOMATIC).....CO2 emissions........247 g/km

EMIRA V6 FIRST EDITION (MANUAL)......CO2 emissions........258 g/km

 

[KJD]

And to add the Emira manual confirmed figures to the list to illustrate the challenge for the auto:

EVORA 400 (MANUAL)................................CO2 emissions........225 g/km.
EVORA 400 (AUTOMATIC)........................CO2 emissions........230 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (MANUAL).............CO2 emissions........234 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (AUTOMATIC).....CO2 emissions........247 g/km

EMIRA V6 FIRST EDITION (MANUAL)......CO2 emissions........258 g/km

Is that comparing apples and pears though?

Wasn’t the Evora 400 before the new WLTP testing regime.

 

[JohnHoward]

* * * * *
I am no expert, however think they have to take more time for a adapted routing of the exhaust and the ECU programming for the autobox steering.
I do not think they will lower the 400 hp, this would be a disaster, therefore they need more time to solve this problem.
I believe that they finally will succeed.

Well I hope they get it sorted PDQ as there isn't much time if they want to achieve auto cars being delivered to customers following the Oct build.

 

[Mistral]

And to add the Emira manual confirmed figures to the list to illustrate the challenge for the auto:

EVORA 400 (MANUAL)................................CO2 emissions........225 g/km.
EVORA 400 (AUTOMATIC)........................CO2 emissions........230 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (MANUAL).............CO2 emissions........234 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (AUTOMATIC).....CO2 emissions........247 g/km

EMIRA V6 FIRST EDITION (MANUAL)......CO2 emissions........258 g/km

I can see the massive difference between the Evora 400 and the Emira FE but I don't understand why it is if the engine/gearbox/exhaust are the same or similar. Are the emissions measurements now done differently?

 

[JohnHoward]

And to add the Emira manual confirmed figures to the list to illustrate the challenge for the auto:

EVORA 400 (MANUAL)................................CO2 emissions........225 g/km.
EVORA 400 (AUTOMATIC)........................CO2 emissions........230 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (MANUAL).............CO2 emissions........234 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (AUTOMATIC).....CO2 emissions........247 g/km

EMIRA V6 FIRST EDITION (MANUAL)......CO2 emissions........258 g/km

Thanks @TomE . Is there a max CO2 emissions figure? I can see on the UK car tax website, that it says vehicles over 255 will be the highest rated, but it doesn't mention an upper limit, but I assume that there is one.

 

[Twin Cam]

Well I hope they get it sorted PDQ as there isn't much time if they want to achieve auto cars being delivered to customers following the Oct build.

How about stop/start technology, fairly cheap fix and can be bypassed by the owner after purchase. I don’t know if it would reduce the emissions enough
wow, I just looked it up, special polymers needed on bearing journals, not to mention cooling bypass circuits and the like, certainly not an easy fix

 

[TomE]

Is that comparing apples and pears though?

Wasn’t the Evora 400 before the new WLTP testing regime.

You're right, Evora 400 was launched in 2015, so before WLTP came in to effect in 2017. I'm not sure if it had to be re-tested to WLTP for the UK VED tables or if those are based on the pre-WLTP figures?

Thanks @TomE . Is there a max CO2 emissions figure? I can see on the UK car tax website, that it says vehicles over 255 will be the highest rated, but it doesn't mention an upper limit, but I assume that there is one.

It's more complicated, because the targets are based on an average across cars sold - hence why manufacturers are selling EVs to offset higher emission vehicles.

 

[Porter]

It's more complicated, because the targets are based on an average across cars sold - hence why manufacturers are selling EVs to offset higher emission vehicles.

It's frustrating that these CAFE-style averaged emissions requirements put enormous pressure on manufacturers to hit arbitrary targets, while commercial freight trucks don't have anywhere near the same level of requirements yet they create by far the greater proportion of real-world pollution.

In my opinion, any case where passenger vehicles have stricter requirements (averaged as emissions allowable by GVW) is a type of wealth transfer from private individual motorists to freight and trucking companies. They're saving on expensive emissions systems that would be needed on commercial trucks if emissions targets were more strict for those classes of vehicle, while private passenger car owners pay a huge premium over the "natural" cost of their vehicles in order to meet arbitrary emissions targets.

 

[JohnHoward]

It's more complicated, because the targets are based on an average across cars sold - hence why manufacturers are selling EVs to offset higher emission vehicles.

@TomE Thanks, I suppose technically the EV range in the case of Lotus will be too little too late as they don't have fully established production (in terms of vloume of cars) running at this point. Could Lotus use some of the Geely stable for offsetting?
As time marches on with no clear answers to the issues, what do you feel are their chances of overcoming this issue?
If the V6 auto doesn't make it, I wonder how many would switch to V6 manual or those that want auto wait for the 2.0L. I wouldn't be surprised if someone at Lotus has already run the numbers on this scenario.
Not sure how many orders are for V6 auto worldwide, but I recall that you have mentioned circa 15% in the UK. The total number of cars and revenue it generates may determine how hard they are working on a solution.

 

[OUI131]

And to add the Emira manual confirmed figures to the list to illustrate the challenge for the auto:

EVORA 400 (MANUAL)................................CO2 emissions........225 g/km.
EVORA 400 (AUTOMATIC)........................CO2 emissions........230 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (MANUAL).............CO2 emissions........234 g/km
EVORA GT 410 Sport (AUTOMATIC).....CO2 emissions........247 g/km

EMIRA V6 FIRST EDITION (MANUAL)......CO2 emissions........258 g/km

Interesting my defender 90 with 400hp has 260 co2
Why is the emira so bad?
Alpine 110 300hp version is around 160 co2 which means eco malus tax of €1500 in France , co2 above 215 will be €50 000 tax from 2023 so I guess we won’t be seeing many emira in France , unless they produce a Plug in hybrid version