The end is near (end of the V6)

[Wiz33]

Is the Toyota Camry V6 used in any other model or by any other manufacturer other than Lotus? The 2025 Camry lineup was revealed yesterday and they're all hybrid based on a 2.5L I4 (no more ICE) Does that means the end of the Emira V6 as I don't think the V6 demand will be enough for Toyota to keep the production line running. I'm sure that somewhere in their contract is a notification clause that Toyota would have to give a certain amount of warning time before stopping production so Lotus have probably been notified. that V6 production will cease sometime in 2024. It maybe stretched into 2025 if Lotus have already have ordered on the book or have the cash flow to stock up on V6 to last till 2028.

 

[Porter]

Is the Toyota Camry V6 used in any other model or by any other manufacturer other than Lotus? The 2025 Camry lineup was revealed yesterday and they're all hybrid based on a 2.5L I4 (no more ICE) Does that means the end of the Emira V6 as I don't think the V6 demand will be enough for Toyota to keep the production line running. I'm sure that somewhere in their contract is a notification clause that Toyota would have to give a certain amount of warning time before stopping production so Lotus have probably been notified. that V6 production will cease sometime in 2024. It maybe stretched into 2025 if Lotus have already have ordered on the book or have the cash flow to stock up on V6 to last till 2028.

Yes, it's used in many Toyota models elsewhere in the world.

 

[Wiz33]

Yes, it's used in many Toyota models elsewhere in the world.

Like what? As long as I know the 3.5L is only used in the Camry. The ones in the trucks and van are like 3.4L and even those are all going hybrid. This is actually inline with what my sale contact told me and the reason I already have a deposit on a Final Edition V6 manual. They expect V6 production end end before 2028 and the reason he sited is that Toyota may cease V6 production at a certain point when it's not worth keeping the V6 production line running with the low volume and that it'll also be harder to keep it CARB certified with the tighter control in the next few years.

 

[Cachaco131]

Like what? As long as I know the 3.5L is only used in the Camry. The ones in the trucks and van are like 3.4L and even those are all going hybrid. This is actually inline with what my sale contact told me and the reason I already have a deposit on a Final Edition V6 manual. They expect V6 production end end before 2028 and the reason he sited is that Toyota may cease V6 production at a certain point when it's not worth keeping the V6 production line running with the low volume and that it'll also be harder to keep it CARB certified with the tighter control in the next few years.

What do you mean by final edition? Are you with boardwalk?

 

[Wiz33]

What do you mean by final edition? Are you with boardwalk?

Not with boardwalk but I have a deposit with them for the final V6 production run in addition to my March production I4.

 

[idleuser]

The V6, V8 for all car manufactures is not long for this world due to higher CAFE standards and stricter emissions.

I believe average fleet being purposed for MY2027-2032 is 58MPG. This is just Toyota getting ahead of the curve by hybridizing their entire fleet + ev vehicles.

 

[JimH]

Like what? As long as I know the 3.5L is only used in the Camry. The ones in the trucks and van are like 3.4L and even those are all going hybrid. This is actually inline with what my sale contact told me and the reason I already have a deposit on a Final Edition V6 manual. They expect V6 production end end before 2028 and the reason he sited is that Toyota may cease V6 production at a certain point when it's not worth keeping the V6 production line running with the low volume and that it'll also be harder to keep it CARB certified with the tighter control in the next few years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GR_engine#2GR-FE (don't forget Lexus...)

 

[Cachaco131]

Not with boardwalk but I have a deposit with them for the final V6 production run in addition to my March production I4.

But there is no final edition announced. Is this like a good faith deposit if something is announced? I ask because I'd like to do something like that but Boardwalk is unaware of any new versions.

 

[Porter]

Like what? As long as I know the 3.5L is only used in the Camry. The ones in the trucks and van are like 3.4L and even those are all going hybrid. This is actually inline with what my sale contact told me and the reason I already have a deposit on a Final Edition V6 manual. They expect V6 production end end before 2028 and the reason he sited is that Toyota may cease V6 production at a certain point when it's not worth keeping the V6 production line running with the low volume and that it'll also be harder to keep it CARB certified with the tighter control in the next few years.

This is not a complete list:


Naturally Aspirated applications:

2005–2012 Toyota Avalon (GSX30)
2012–2018 Toyota Avalon (GSX40)
2006–2012 Toyota Aurion (GSV40)
2012–2017 Toyota Aurion (GSV50)
2005–2012 Toyota RAV4/Vanguard (GSA33/38)
2006–2019 Toyota Estima/Previa/Tarago (GSR50/55)
2006–2011 Toyota Camry (GSV40)
2011–2017 Toyota Camry (GSV50)
2006–2012 Lexus ES 350 (GSV40)
2012–2018 Lexus ES 350 (GSV60)
2007–2009 Lexus RX 350/Toyota Harrier (GSU30/31/35/36)
2009–2015 Lexus RX 350 (GGL10/15/16)
2007–2016 Toyota Highlander/Kluger (GSU40/45/50/55)
2007–2012 Toyota Blade Master (GRE156)
2007–2013 Toyota Mark X Zio (GGA10)
2008–2015 Toyota Alphard/Vellfire (GGH20/25)
2015–2017 Toyota Alphard/Vellfire (GGH30/35)
2008–2016 Toyota Venza (GGV10/15)
2020–2023 Lexus LM 350 (Hong Kong only)[4]
2009–2021 Lotus Evora (280 PS (206 kW; 276 hp) & 350 N⋅m (258 lb⋅ft) using Lotus engine management, Sport Pack package redline increased to 7000 rpm)
2007–2016 Toyota Sienna (GSL20/23/25/30/33/35)
2009–present Bolwell Nagari 300
Toyota Corolla (E140/E150) (for Super GT use)
Lotus Evora GTE (modified 4 litre version with 470 hp (477 PS; 350 kW) N/A for race use in the ALMS and at the 24 Hours of Le Mans)

Supercharged applications:

2007–2009 TRD Aurion (TRD supercharger)
2009–present Bolwell Nagari 300 (Sprintex supercharger)
2011–16 Lotus Evora S (345 hp (350 PS; 257 kW), 295 lb⋅ft (400 N⋅m))
2012–2021 Lotus Exige S/350/360/380/410/430 (345–430 hp (350–436 PS; 257–321 kW), 295–325 lb⋅ft (400–441 N⋅m))
2017–2021 Lotus Evora 400 (400 hp (406 PS; 298 kW), 410 hp (416 PS; 306 kW), 430 hp (436 PS; 321 kW))
2022–present Lotus Emira

(From Wikipedia)

 

[Nova]

Do we know what other current/future Toyota/Lexus models will use the 2GR-FE?

 

[Wiz33]

This is not a complete list:


Naturally Aspirated applications:

2005–2012 Toyota Avalon (GSX30)
2012–2018 Toyota Avalon (GSX40)
2006–2012 Toyota Aurion (GSV40)
2012–2017 Toyota Aurion (GSV50)
2005–2012 Toyota RAV4/Vanguard (GSA33/38)
2006–2019 Toyota Estima/Previa/Tarago (GSR50/55)
2006–2011 Toyota Camry (GSV40)
2011–2017 Toyota Camry (GSV50)
2006–2012 Lexus ES 350 (GSV40)
2012–2018 Lexus ES 350 (GSV60)
2007–2009 Lexus RX 350/Toyota Harrier (GSU30/31/35/36)
2009–2015 Lexus RX 350 (GGL10/15/16)
2007–2016 Toyota Highlander/Kluger (GSU40/45/50/55)
2007–2012 Toyota Blade Master (GRE156)
2007–2013 Toyota Mark X Zio (GGA10)
2008–2015 Toyota Alphard/Vellfire (GGH20/25)
2015–2017 Toyota Alphard/Vellfire (GGH30/35)
2008–2016 Toyota Venza (GGV10/15)
2020–2023 Lexus LM 350 (Hong Kong only)[4]
2009–2021 Lotus Evora (280 PS (206 kW; 276 hp) & 350 N⋅m (258 lb⋅ft) using Lotus engine management, Sport Pack package redline increased to 7000 rpm)
2007–2016 Toyota Sienna (GSL20/23/25/30/33/35)
2009–present Bolwell Nagari 300
Toyota Corolla (E140/E150) (for Super GT use)
Lotus Evora GTE (modified 4 litre version with 470 hp (477 PS; 350 kW) N/A for race use in the ALMS and at the 24 Hours of Le Mans)

Supercharged applications:

2007–2009 TRD Aurion (TRD supercharger)
2009–present Bolwell Nagari 300 (Sprintex supercharger)
2011–16 Lotus Evora S (345 hp (350 PS; 257 kW), 295 lb⋅ft (400 N⋅m))
2012–2021 Lotus Exige S/350/360/380/410/430 (345–430 hp (350–436 PS; 257–321 kW), 295–325 lb⋅ft (400–441 N⋅m))
2017–2021 Lotus Evora 400 (400 hp (406 PS; 298 kW), 410 hp (416 PS; 306 kW), 430 hp (436 PS; 321 kW))
2022–present Lotus Emira

(From Wikipedia)

That's like 5-6 models that still use the V6 and 3 of them are Lexus 350 variants and they have already introduced a hybrid engine for them and will probably replace them all with hybrid with the 2025 refresh. All signs points to Toyota phasing it out on all their model by then.

 

[kitkat]

Do we know what other current/future Toyota/Lexus models will use the 2GR-FE?

Unlikely for future models to use it, the direct injection variant is much more likely.

 

[forest]

The 2GR-FXS engine is installed in cars presented this year.
New cars equipped with the 2GR-FE have already been discontinued for several years.
The Camry before the model change was also 2GR-FXS. The Camry was equipped with the 2GR-FE until 2017.
The 2GR-FXS is a 2GR-FSE-based direct injection engine, which shares the same engine block with the 2GR-FE but has a completely different engine head.

Supposedly, cars equipped with the 2GR-FE were manufactured until 2020.

In other words, the 2GR-FE engine had already been in production almost exclusively for Lotus for several years.
No one knows when this production line will be closed except those involved.

 

[Tokion]

The 2GR-FXS engine is installed in cars presented this year.
New cars equipped with the 2GR-FE have already been discontinued for several years.
The Camry before the model change was also 2GR-FXS. The Camry was equipped with the 2GR-FE until 2017.
The 2GR-FXS is a 2GR-FSE-based direct injection engine, which shares the same engine block with the 2GR-FE but has a completely different engine head.

Supposedly, cars equipped with the 2GR-FE were manufactured until 2020.

In other words, the 2GR-FE engine had already been in production almost exclusively for Lotus for several years.
No one knows when this production line will be closed except those involved.

I am also sure that Lotus Cars with its Geely parent can afford to purchase and stock as many 2GR-FE engines as needed. The Lotus Group has announced that they will stop manufacturing and selling ICE cars by 2027. Also there is the issue of how long the emissions level (CARB etc) will allow cars with the 2GR-FE engine. Luckily (for Lotus) it seems that some of the next level emissions limitations in Europe were postponed. So there is some possibility that Lotus Cars can sell cars with the 2GR-FE engine through 2027.

If the above is true, Lotus Cars will be able to calculate its need for 2GR-FE engines until this date and purchase sufficient stock.

The only other limiting factor will be demand. High interest rates and faulting world economy will definitely play in, but with my own background as an economist, we are about to enter 2024, and even if the current downturn will last for another year or two, there is a good chance things will swing upwards again, so 2026 and 2027 could become economically stronger years for the world economy. It will also be interesting to see how “petrol heads” react closer to the limit when manufacturing (of any Lotus with ICE engine) comes close.

Final Edition V6 anyone?

 

[kljman]

I am also sure that Lotus Cars with its Geely parent can afford to purchase and stock as many 2GR-FE engines as needed. The Lotus Group has announced that they will stop manufacturing and selling ICE cars by 2027. Also there is the issue of how long the emissions level (CARB etc) will allow cars with the 2GR-FE engine. Luckily (for Lotus) it seems that some of the next level emissions limitations in Europe were postponed. So there is some possibility that Lotus Cars can sell cars with the 2GR-FE engine through 2027.

If the above is true, Lotus Cars will be able to calculate its need for 2GR-FE engines until this date and purchase sufficient stock.

The only other limiting factor will be demand. High interest rates and faulting world economy will definitely play in, but with my own background as an economist, we are about to enter 2024, and even if the current downturn will last for another year or two, there is a good chance things will swing upwards again, so 2026 and 2027 could become economically stronger years for the world economy. It will also be interesting to see how “petrol heads” react closer to the limit when manufacturing (of any Lotus with ICE engine) comes close.

Final Edition V6 anyone?

 

[kljman]

I just toured the factory in hethel and was able to get get the 411 on the engines. The v6 is not going away. They have contracted to continue. With that said the plan is by 2030 for lotus to go all electric. So yes the v6 will go away but not due to availability. That was from our tour guide at the factory. Hope that helps

 

[dgrace]

With that said the plan is by 2030 for lotus to go all electric.

Well, that's _one_ way to get CARB certification.

 

[kljman]

Well, that's _one_ way to get CARB certification.

lol For sure. I also got a fresh perspective on why the I4? The I4 has much lower C02 emissions. In some countries the V6 could cost from 10K-50K more depending on where. Torque wise they are both very similar - I was always curious why have both. Being from the US I decided on the V6 - just like that engine better - like Toyota reliability etc. Also I learned that they basically have to rebuild the gear box for both the I4 and for the V6 manual transmissions. They do this so that the manual is capable of 180mphl. The V6 comes to the factory as an automatic transmission spec so all the manuals are basically rebuilt - it was an amazing process to hear about. if you get a chance to tour the factory in Hethel I highly recommend it if you are planning on buying one of these cars - it's basically 3 hours outside of London.

 

[hagen111]

In the Netherlands the taxes added to V6 FE Emira amount 100% - pollution tax = 50k EUR, VAT = 20k (21%), total about 70k EUR extra in taxes. Initially i4 would be a lot - as in a LOT - cheaper because of reduced emissions, but final outcome is somehow disappointing, its still not very 'clean' - which results in still high pollution tax added. Half of V6, but still substantial, combined with the VAT.

V6 FE = 160k EUR
i4 = 120k EUR.

 

[Nova]

I am glad that draconian taxes like that would never fly here in the US.