2.0 EMIRA has arrived in China

[ADC]

Lotus is charging more for the V6 than the i4, so that's why they care.

I will gladly pay them the same amount of money to have a non-hobbled i4!! takemymoney.jpg

I also speculate that the real reason is simply market segmentation / product stratification, as @Callabrator says.

 

[ADC]

Is it though? I think Lotus have been pretty clear in saying that i4 production is delayed until they clear the backlog of V6 cars. Production is likely to start in Q2 next year.

Yeah, it kind of is secretive. Regardless of stated production ramp up plans, has anyone seen or heard an i4 Emira in any meaningful sense (not just an incognito test mule puttering past during a factory tour visit)?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to see a tooling validation model mysteriously get spotted in China, but... where are the development updates to keep the i4 deposit-holders from committing seppuku? Or a short video of Gavan ragging an i4 around Hethel. Or even an email just saying "good news, we're on to the next step of validation, and inching closer to production". Throw us a frickin' bone already.

 

[ADC]

I think only Matt Windle can answer that but my guess would be V6 as a premium engine with better sound and a manual gearbox option which a lot of enthusiasts want. i4 developed for the Chinese market where taxes are prohibitive for engines above 2L. This then gives the opportunity for a cheaper 360hp lead in engine for Europe, although contrary to what the label says I thought one of the conversations in the forum stated that Matt swindle had confirmed China i4 was also 360ps. If the i4 really is available as 400ps lotus are unlikely to offer that version in Europe as they would have to spend the time and money to homologate it, and add complexity to the factory just for it to compete with the existing v6. Yes there will be people for whom this would be their ideal combination and keep hoping it will happen but I don’t see a business case for Lotus investing in this.

I'm not sure I understand the line of reasoning, or I'm misreading it... you're saying it makes better business sense / is cheaper and easier to homologate two different variants of the same engine (one for China, and another for RoW)? The 360hp variant should be in no way cheaper for Lotus to produce than the 400hp one, as it would be bonkers to vary the hardware... it would surely be software only, the cost of which is already paid if the maps have been developed.

 

[Matthaus]

Yeah, it kind of is secretive. Regardless of stated production ramp up plans, has anyone seen or heard an i4 Emira in any meaningful sense (not just an incognito test mule puttering past during a factory tour visit)?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to see a tooling validation model mysteriously get spotted in China, but... where are the development updates to keep the i4 deposit-holders from committing seppuku? Or a short video of Gavan ragging an i4 around Hethel. Or even an email just saying "good news, we're on to the next step of validation, and inching closer to production". Throw us a frickin' bone already.

Yeah that distinct lack of i4 info one of the reasons why I bailed.

 

[xen]

The V6 is very likely more profitable (significantly) than the i4

It is cheaper, costs less to develop and they charge more for it. What’s not to like.

 

[Jack Stone]

When I spoke to Matt W at Hethel in September he said he'd recently driven the I4. He didn't specify say it was his first drive but I sensed that was what he was implying.

 

[Grumpy]

The world has moved on and DC boxes are now very good and of course I am old fashioned but for pure driving pleasure I would choose a manual every time. The Porsche pdk is one of the very best, but every time I drive one I would take their manual any day, even with the silly long gearing. The AMG engine is a fine piece of engineering but by the time it's released here with the particulate filters it will be a work of genius to make it sound good. Hard to believe it will be as bad as the Porsche 4cyl which sounds like a truck. It's also Turbo v supercharged so throttle response will be interesting. Weight difference is minimal as the DSG is a chunk heavier than the manual on the V6. I don't doubt that an i4 GT400 DCT (when it happens) will be faster around a track than a V6 manual, but more satisfying - possibly not for me. Auto's are great for shopping trips and traffic , my wife's BMW auto is seamless, but I wouldn't want it along a favourite road.

 

[andyss]

The V6 is very likely more profitable (significantly) than the i4

It's hard to be sure. Yes, the Toyota engine is unlikely to be expensive, given its age and background. But there are rumours that Lotus is getting the Mercedes i4 at or near cost price, partly due to the Geely chairman owning a large chunk of Daimler. And further rumours that some at Mercedes are unhappy with this situation.

 

[Jack Stone]

The world has moved on and DC boxes are now very good and of course I am old fashioned but for pure driving pleasure I would choose a manual every time. The Porsche pdk is one of the very best, but every time I drive one I would take their manual any day, even with the silly long gearing. The AMG engine is a fine piece of engineering but by the time it's released here with the particulate filters it will be a work of genius to make it sound good. Hard to believe it will be as bad as the Porsche 4cyl which sounds like a truck. It's also Turbo v supercharged so throttle response will be interesting. Weight difference is minimal as the DSG is a chunk heavier than the manual on the V6. I don't doubt that an i4 GT400 DCT (when it happens) will be faster around a track than a V6 manual, but more satisfying - possibly not for me. Auto's are great for shopping trips and traffic , my wife's BMW auto is seamless, but I wouldn't want it along a favourite road.

Is the I4's driver interface for drive selection the same as that for the V6 auto?

 

[JimH]

Is the I4's driver interface for drive selection the same as that for the V6 auto?

Nobody knows for sure, but the current assumption is yes.....

 

[Tokion]

The world has moved on and DC boxes are now very good and of course I am old fashioned but for pure driving pleasure I would choose a manual every time. The Porsche pdk is one of the very best, but every time I drive one I would take their manual any day, even with the silly long gearing. The AMG engine is a fine piece of engineering but by the time it's released here with the particulate filters it will be a work of genius to make it sound good. Hard to believe it will be as bad as the Porsche 4cyl which sounds like a truck. It's also Turbo v supercharged so throttle response will be interesting. Weight difference is minimal as the DSG is a chunk heavier than the manual on the V6. I don't doubt that an i4 GT400 DCT (when it happens) will be faster around a track than a V6 manual, but more satisfying - possibly not for me. Auto's are great for shopping trips and traffic , my wife's BMW auto is seamless, but I wouldn't want it along a favourite road.

But torque converter auto is fundamentally different from DCT/PDK both Dual Clutch Transmissions). I came from the manual gearshift world, which is romantic and nostalgic, but no longer competitive in any form of car racing, so the manual gearbox (which I also enjoy for fun) is obsolete. I am looking very much forward to my Emira I4 FE with one of the best 8-speed DCT gearboxes in the world.

 

[Grumpy]

But torque converter auto is fundamentally different from DCT/PDK both Dual Clutch Transmissions). I came from the manual gearshift world, which is romantic and nostalgic, but no longer competitive in any form of car racing, so the manual gearbox (which I also enjoy for fun) is obsolete. I am looking very much forward to my Emira I4 FE with one of the best 8-speed DCT gearboxes in the world.

I agree, but even the best DCT’s are not as engaging for me. It’s not so much the shift action as the clutch and throttle blend.

 

[IanO]

I'm not sure I understand the line of reasoning, or I'm misreading it... you're saying it makes better business sense / is cheaper and easier to homologate two different variants of the same engine (one for China, and another for RoW)? The 360hp variant should be in no way cheaper for Lotus to produce than the 400hp one, as it would be bonkers to vary the hardware... it would surely be software only, the cost of which is already paid if the maps have been developed.

I will work on the structuring of my posts. You are right in that China and ROW are different homologation processes so there is no extra cost homologating a 400hp engine vs the 360hp for the different markets, you will have the same number of homologations to perform. As you say, the 360hp engine is likely to be a derated version of the 400 (if the 400 actually exists) making it cheap to develop. What will cost more is homologating a 360hp and a 400hp variant of the same engine for ROW. Lotus will homologate the 360hp version for the lower cost entry powertrain. If they homologate for 400hp only they would have to charge more which negates the lead-in positioning. This may go against what is considered logical by some as the engine may be no more expensive to build with 400hp than 360hp but car sales models are based on the customer pays for power so there would be a higher charge to the customer even if there isn’t a higher cost to the producer. The difference between the i4 and V6 would then be less if not nothing at all and the option of two different engines with the same power is likely to attract less customers than the £60k starting price for the 360hp variant will.

 

[IanO]

It's hard to be sure. Yes, the Toyota engine is unlikely to be expensive, given its age and background. But there are rumours that Lotus is getting the Mercedes i4 at or near cost price, partly due to the Geely chairman owning a large chunk of Daimler. And further rumours that some at Mercedes are unhappy with this situation.

Plus the significant cost for adding the supercharger, chargecooler and cooling circuit and the rebuild costs on the transmission to add the Lotus specific gearing need to be added to the cost of the basic Toyota engine.

 

[ADC]

I will work on the structuring of my posts. You are right in that China and ROW are different homologation processes so there is no extra cost homologating a 400hp engine vs the 360hp for the different markets, you will have the same number of homologations to perform. As you say, the 360hp engine is likely to be a derated version of the 400 (if the 400 actually exists) making it cheap to develop. What will cost more is homologating a 360hp and a 400hp variant of the same engine for ROW. Lotus will homologate the 360hp version for the lower cost entry powertrain. If they homologate for 400hp only they would have to charge more which negates the lead-in positioning. This may go against what is considered logical by some as the engine may be no more expensive to build with 400hp than 360hp but car sales models are based on the customer pays for power so there would be a higher charge to the customer even if there isn’t a higher cost to the producer. The difference between the i4 and V6 would then be less if not nothing at all and the option of two different engines with the same power is likely to attract less customers than the £60k starting price for the 360hp variant will.

I think what is galling is that it is so transparently about making the V6 look "better" than the i4. We all know that the M139 engine itself is good for an easy 100bhp on top of what they are offering, but *marketing handwave handwave*

I, and probably many others, would happily pay for the higher state of tune (it should be thrown in for the First Edition IMO, even if that takes the price to equal with the V6), but the option is not given.

EDIT: I should add that the raison d'être for offering the 400hp variant in China (only) was kind of invalidated when they decided to sell the V6 there after all (because of the development delays on the i4). So just give us the same everywhere dammit :crankypants:

 

[Matt]

I think what is galling is that it is so transparently about making the V6 look "better" than the i4. We all know that the M139 engine itself is good for an easy 100bhp on top of what they are offering, but *marketing handwave handwave*

I, and probably many others, would happily pay for the higher state of tune (it should be thrown in for the First Edition IMO, even if that takes the price to equal with the V6), but the option is not given.

EDIT: I should add that the raison d'être for offering the 400hp variant in China (only) was kind of invalidated when they decided to sell the V6 there after all (because of the development delays on the i4). So just give us the same everywhere dammit :crankypants:

I do agree that LOTUS should introduce i4 FE to markets in other countries.

 

[lishunyang503]

The new Lotus emira AMG M139 has arrived in Shaanxi Province, China.

 

[DaaS]

It sounds like the Toyota V6

 

[Tonyshepp]

It doesn't sound bad at tickover if that's the I4

 

[Jonhklee]

Could be a V6 that. No evidence it’s an i4….. hmmm. I only wish that is true noise of i4.