Compromises

[frazzer]

All this talk of cars holding their value - I'm confused about one point. In the UK I'm paying 20% VAT (sales tax to you 'merikans). So roughly 15k of the purchase is just tax. Of course in reality it's a lot higher since I've already paid 40%+ tax on the income but that's another story.

So the dealer has only received 80% of the price I paid. So why would the dealer buy it back from me at 100% or more of what I paid? The dealer also has to add 20% to the price as tax when he lists it to sell. I could sell on the private market, now the buyer doesn't care what is tax and what isn't, it's just cost. But no-one buys an 80k car from a random dude! its always through a garage / dealer.

So ultimately flipping a car in a flat market will still loose you the tax, that's 20% here in the UK unless you buy and sell the car through your tax registered company (this is not advice!). Not thinking of flipping, but if the economy crashes, and it has been in slow-mo since I put a deposit down, I need options.

 

[TomE]

You're right and in a normal market the rule of thumb is the car is worth 20% less the moment you drive away from the dealer.

With a 2-year waiting list the premium could potentially offset the tax (and perhaps a bit more), so a dealer may offer you close to the sales price. They'll need to add £3-4k on top for prep and profit, possibly less as they don't need to do much prep or add extra warranty if it's just got delivery mileage.

People will buy a brand new £80k car privately if it's low mileage and has the PDI and (if relevant) running-in stamps in the service book. It'll have the balance of the warranty left, so very little for a new buyer to worry about. If it hasn't been run in, it's possible for a Lotus dealer to do an ECU print out to show it hasn't been ragged for the first 100 miles.

 

[Tonyshepp]

You're right and in a normal market the rule of thumb is the car is worth 20% less the moment you drive away from the dealer.

With a 2-year waiting list the premium could potentially offset the tax (and perhaps a bit more), so a dealer may offer you close to the sales price. They'll need to add £3-4k on top for prep and profit, possibly less as they don't need to do much prep or add extra warranty if it's just got delivery mileage.

People will buy a brand new £80k car privately if it's low mileage and has the PDI and (if relevant) running-in stamps in the service book. It'll have the balance of the warranty left, so very little for a new buyer to worry about. If it hasn't been run in, it's possible for a Lotus dealer to do an ECU print out to show it hasn't been ragged for the first 100 miles.

Is it two years Tom, i thought someone the other day put a deposit down and they got told 60 weeks?

 

[Tonyshepp]

All this talk of cars holding their value - I'm confused about one point. In the UK I'm paying 20% VAT (sales tax to you 'merikans). So roughly 15k of the purchase is just tax. Of course in reality it's a lot higher since I've already paid 40%+ tax on the income but that's another story.

So the dealer has only received 80% of the price I paid. So why would the dealer buy it back from me at 100% or more of what I paid? The dealer also has to add 20% to the price as tax when he lists it to sell. I could sell on the private market, now the buyer doesn't care what is tax and what isn't, it's just cost. But no-one buys an 80k car from a random dude! its always through a garage / dealer.

So ultimately flipping a car in a flat market will still loose you the tax, that's 20% here in the UK unless you buy and sell the car through your tax registered company (this is not advice!). Not thinking of flipping, but if the economy crashes, and it has been in slow-mo since I put a deposit down, I need options.

Thats where PCP may slightly benefit you - if the market crashes and at the end of the PCP the car isnt worth the balloon figure you just hand the keys back walkaway and have just rented the car.

 

[DaaS]

Ditto. It’s going to hurt.

I am keeping the Evora GT. Emira will replace one of my other sports car

 

[frazzer]

Thats where PCP may slightly benefit you - if the market crashes and at the end of the PCP the car isnt worth the balloon figure you just hand the keys back walkaway and have just rented the car.

I can see how that might make more sense in this rare case, specially with current rate of inflation. But in my case I don't borrow or loan with interest - so it's an outright purchase for me.

 

[Tonyshepp]

I can see how that might make more sense in this rare case, specially with current rate of inflation. But in my case I don't borrow or loan with interest - so it's an outright purchase for me.

Same here. There's multiple factors at play. Will petrol prices stay being exorbitant (seeing as HMG take 46%) and thus no one wants a gas guzzler so Emira prices slide. Inflation means new car prices rise, they then become unobtainable for people and second hand prices firm up.
Worse case you lose 50% in 4 years, so 10k a year.
The Base I4 will be the car that loses very little depreciation.

 

[TomE]

Is it two years Tom, i thought someone the other day put a deposit down and they got told 60 weeks?

Sorry you're right. Two years was before they factored in second shift starting early. It's 60-65 weeks currently but I'd expect that to lengthen once dealer demo cars are out there.

 

[emiraspain]

All this talk of cars holding their value - I'm confused about one point. In the UK I'm paying 20% VAT (sales tax to you 'merikans). So roughly 15k of the purchase is just tax. Of course in reality it's a lot higher since I've already paid 40%+ tax on the income but that's another story.

So the dealer has only received 80% of the price I paid. So why would the dealer buy it back from me at 100% or more of what I paid? The dealer also has to add 20% to the price as tax when he lists it to sell. I could sell on the private market, now the buyer doesn't care what is tax and what isn't, it's just cost. But no-one buys an 80k car from a random dude! its always through a garage / dealer.

So ultimately flipping a car in a flat market will still loose you the tax, that's 20% here in the UK unless you buy and sell the car through your tax registered company (this is not advice!). Not thinking of flipping, but if the economy crashes, and it has been in slow-mo since I put a deposit down, I need options.

I think there are many factors here and the main one would be how the VAT is treated in the UK for car dealers, which is different than some businesses.

Most car dealers charge VAT on the profit they make from the sale (the second-hand margin scheme) and hence that changes things.
Also, the Lotus "dealers" are not buying the cars to my idea or are they? You can buy the car from Lotus and have it delivered to the dealer and in that case, the 15 odd grand you mention is not relevant anyway. There is the other route also, but I dont know what happens there>
At a local porsche dealer, someone bought a GT3, high value customer of course, took delivery and the next day took it to another dealer 20 miles away who bought it off him for a tidy profit, 20k. They then of course sold it for a tidy profit themselves.... So it can be done when a final customer is willing to pay quite a bit more than the original customer.
I will be selling my UK car, to fund my spanish car, but I wont be selling it to a dealer, although they could do it on a commission basis too of course, but I dont think it will be too hard to sell privately.
I sold my NOMAD to the guys from ALFaholics, not to be confused with those that drink and drive!

 

[SmallerBaller]

I’ve shared those concerns too. However…

I didn’t even sit in a Lotus until 6 years ago because of the old rumours about reliability. Since then I have bought 4 and will always have a Lotus as long as I can afford one! An Exige 350, 2 Elise’s (a new one and now I’ve bought a 23 year old Elise with 118hp!) and now the Emira. They’ve all been bullet proof.

I’ve had a couple of 911s and some much more exotic and much faster ‘supercars’ too.

The 911s were awesome because they did everything - including have 2 usable rear seats (for while the kids were small - upto about age 8).

None of them match any of the Lotus’ I’ve had for real world driving enjoyment at road speeds and on track. I just love the ‘bolt action rifle’ feel of the gear shift, for example. Getting it ‘right’ isn’t hard and it’s something I really enjoy the feel of. If you’re going for lap times, maybe this isn’t the car for you. But still, I’m sure it’ll be very quick and great fun.

Oh and kids turn their heads or shout to their parents when they see the Lotuses. Not that it’s important to me, but just shows how special a Lotus is. Even in its home market in the U.K.

Please do test drive an Evora as well. You might find that is the car for you. I don’t believe it’s any compromise on ease of getting in/out and, as with all cars (except the most exotic), the dashboard entertainment and SatNav systems will just age anyway. Also, some have rear seats which may make a big difference to you. It would for me, if my kids were still little.

Do also test drive the Emira. As much as I have questioned some of the choices they made on the FE car, I have no doubts it will be a massively enjoyable car to drive.

The other thing the Lotus has over Porsche - true in the U.K. at least - is servicing costs. That Toyota sourced engine and gearbox does bring a LOT of benefits and confidence.

In the US I’m not sure how close folks will be to dealers if there are other issues though. The only issues any friends had were minor cosmetic/ electrical and didn’t stop them driving the car. But that’s same for both Emira and Evora.

Try whatever Porsches you can afford too. Do consider servicing costs too, as well as reliability, if you go for an older car. They’re not as bullet proof as maybe their reputation goes. Not just engines, but other components.

Apart from rear seats and the points you already made, the Evora has weight on its side vs the Emira. It’s only 50-70kg, but one of the revelations of Lotus ownership is how well things like brakes and tyres last. It’ll be more marginal for the Evora than say and Exige or Elise, but everything helps especially if you’re going to do the occasional track day.

I’m sure the Emira IS a great drivers car and arguably the most beautiful Lotus ever made.

Also, I could easily accuse myself of splitting hairs by comparing it against the best all round driving experience I’ve ever had!

Try them all. Go with what you love, you’ve worked hard for it.

As I had said and you highlighted, I am very drawn to the Evora and Emira because of the 2GR engines. I, and family members, have had these before in multiple applications and they have been super solid and always felt like they were begging to be pushed harder than they were allowed to be, and regular maintenance is no big deal compared to most modern Porsches. Bigger jobs, I will be paying a ton regardless, but lets hope we dont need those. And I am fully expecting electrical issues... everyone complains about that aspect and with all the brand new (to Lotus) tech and the given electrical reliability ratings of Geely/Volvo, I doubt that will get much better. But hey, who knows!

 

[SmallerBaller]

Wow... a lot of advice and a lot of worry and a lot of work! Well done.... but I echo that, all work and no xxxxx... never a good idea, I dont care what anyone says.
A few points, it seems you have not driven an evora or any lotus come to that? so I cant see why the fact that the Emira has less HP than a car you have not driven would worry you, it really shouldnt and you cant read too much into the Evora drivers opinions "yet" as they have not driven the Emira either, apart from Harry and other reviewers, and none of them said it was slower to me recollection... so get that one out of your head. It has 400HP ..ish and thats it and in theory thats enough. In practice, as everyone has said, test drive it and you will know.
Another point, which you slightly raised but is quite evident, most people on here have had or do have several other cars, cars far superior to the Emira, WAY WAY superior, and although they are complaining and xxtching like old women (myself included) they are STILL here. So either they have no life, or they really want this damn car. That should tell you something too.
Finally, every car out there, the same as every country and person out there, comes with good and bad (in my case pretty much all good....yep I really cant think of the bad, maybe the punctuation and length of posts, but even that can be good). Looking at every car is a different experience, the way it makes you feel, whether it makes you want to keep looking at it, turn around and see it again each time you see it, or not. Sitting in every car makes you feel a certain way, comfy, quality, poised, or just plain uncomfortable as too many people are looking at you thinking what a so and so you must be, in my case obviously not the case. Finally, every car makes you feel something when you drive it, again from comfort, to exhilaration in some cases, from fear to back ache in others, but the real feeling you want when you come to the end of the journey, is to not come to the end of that journey! (quite romantic no?)
I agree, you should test drive, but I will also tell you that you should not expect the test drive to make your mind up, a 20 mins drive with a dealer guy next to you, obeying speed limits etc, it will give you an idea, but I have had a few and made decisions based on them, which can often be wrong, but yes you need to do it.
Final point, yes I realise I said finally before this point, there is no perfect car. A ferrari is great, but people generally hate you for driving it, a porsche is fantastic, gt4, 911, but certainly in the UK, you get the same disgust from passers by all the way back from the yuppies of the 80's, keying such cars. You should not look for a car that will give you everything as neither you nor I can give everything to anyone we are with and we can in theory adapt our "suspension, responsiveness, speed etc" more than any car can. However, one of these cars will make you feel a bit more alive from its overall package..... for me, the Emira would "seem" as if it does that more than the others.
Final, final, ultimate point, it doesnt matter! If you get the Emira, or GTS, each of them and I would say Emira more so, it will currently hold its value as all used cars do, especially in the US, so if you dont like it, you sell it and move on as most people on here will do with any car they buy.
Hence, dont stress it.. get it, try it..... love it, great, dont love it, sell it and move onto something else.

I have driven an Evora 400, but that is the only Lotus I have driven. I loved it, hence my interest and determination to get a driver's car, but wasnt blown away by the quickness (again, not what the car is for and I wasnt expecting to be) but I wouldnt want an Emira to be much slower in a straight line to be honest. There is a point where that is an important factor, especially at this price. Sat in an elise a couple times, but that obviously isnt the same thing as driving hahah! I think what I have taken more than anything in this thread is that I am in no rush and should take time to relax and consider/ test drive everything I can.

If someone keyed my car (any car I have had, even the crappy ones) I would vomit! Especially after working this hard for it.

 

[emiraspain]

I have driven an Evora 400, but that is the only Lotus I have driven. I loved it, hence my interest and determination to get a driver's car, but wasnt blown away by the quickness (again, not what the car is for and I wasnt expecting to be) but I wouldnt want an Emira to be much slower in a straight line to be honest. There is a point where that is an important factor, especially at this price. Sat in an elise a couple times, but that obviously isnt the same thing as driving hahah! I think what I have taken more than anything in this thread is that I am in no rush and should take time to relax and consider/ test drive everything I can.

If someone keyed my car (any car I have had, even the crappy ones) I would vomit! Especially after working this hard for it.

Yes well, in certain countries, I would say Spain, France...Italy Greece, the respect of the car is lower.
I have had a car less than a week before someone had dented it, and less than a month before that one person became 3 people.. just opening their doors, with no care, not keying!
Yes, you take your time, but in the company you are mentioning, there is no real wrong choice, but as Fernandinio Porsche once said, before playing for manchester city, the best porsche is the latest porsche and although I love the Esprit (never driven one) and the old Elan etc, the best Lotus is no doubt the Emira.....

 

[Hedge]

at the end of the day, the last word, when you break everything down.... its hard work to think of alternatives sometimes haha.

https://www.youtube.com/user/DrPittenstein

is this guy on here? I used to like watching his videos when I considered buying an Exige, which I didnt do as its just a bit ugly and mismatchy, but I am guessing he may be getting an Emira, but I maybe wrong.....

I don’t think he is buying an Emira FE, at least.

 

[Bilbao-Emira]

I went that route and now I don’t want to sell the Evora.

That makes at least three of us!

 

[Bilbao-Emira]

I am keeping the Evora GT. Emira will replace one of my other sports car

My brother from another mother!
I´m keeping the Evora GT410 Sport and Emira will be replacing my Aston DB9, although it's hard for me since it's the only car that has stayed with me for more than 10 years, actually more than my ex wife!