I'm out - the cancellations thread

[boisecrawfords]

Maybe some people don't realize that in the U.S. you don't buy from the manufacturer, you buy from the dealer. When you place an order with a dealer, they have to commit to that by ordering it from the manufacturer. The manufacturer then commits to ordering all the pieces necessary to build your car, and paying for everything (including labor) right up to and including shipping it to the dealer. They don't get paid by the dealer until they deliver the car to them. Once that happens, the dealer has to pay the manufacturer, and now has to collect the full amount from you, because they've already paid for the car.

The dealer can't just cancel your order because you want them to. They're on the hook for the car you ordered. If you don't pay for whatever reason, now they have to try and find a buyer. If you ordered a car with unusual options, or an unusual color combo, it may be very difficult for them to sell it, which is why they have the contracts about non-refundable deposits on a special order. If they can sell the car reasonably quickly, they usually won't come after you because lawsuits also cost money. Keeping the deposit after you bailed on them is considered good enough to cover their expenses to sell your car. However if they have difficulty selling the car you ordered, they have every legal right to come after you for the money. Read contracts carefully before you sign, and keep a paper trail of communications (which is what the GM was doing at Park Place when he said he would only communicate via email in this one case).

They also don't want to start trying to cancel orders they already placed with the manufacturer, because the manufacturer may just stop taking orders from them, and now they can't get any cars to sell. Cancellations cost the manufacturer too.

In the case of a dealer having to notify you of a delay in estimated delivery due to delays from the manufacturer, that's not the dealer's fault or anything they did or have control over, so taking them to court is just going to be a waste of time and money. Unless there was a stipulation in the contract that the car had to be delivered by a specific time, there's no grounds for a legal action. It would have to be something dealer-specific to have a basis for taking them to court. In this case, with a car model that hasn't even been produced and certified for the U.S. yet, it's even more unlikely you'd have a case.

Lotus advised me directly that I could cancel and that I just needed to talk to Park Place. Park Place said no.

Chatted with an attorney but will cost about $10k to do anything, other than just send a letter, which he said I'm sure isn't the first time they've done this to someone so they will just ignore it. At this point just going to wait a year, get the car, then sell it. Have lost a solid five figures in the market over the past two weeks so may be better that they have the money. 😂

 

[Rupes]

Maybe some people don't realize that in the U.S. you don't buy from the manufacturer, you buy from the dealer. When you place an order with a dealer, they have to commit to that by ordering it from the manufacturer. The manufacturer then commits to ordering all the pieces necessary to build your car, and paying for everything (including labor) right up to and including shipping it to the dealer. They don't get paid by the dealer until they deliver the car to them. Once that happens, the dealer has to pay the manufacturer, and now has to collect the full amount from you, because they've already paid for the car.

The dealer can't just cancel your order because you want them to. They're on the hook for the car you ordered. If you don't pay for whatever reason, now they have to try and find a buyer. If you ordered a car with unusual options, or an unusual color combo, it may be very difficult for them to sell it, which is why they have the contracts about non-refundable deposits on a special order. If they can sell the car reasonably quickly, they usually won't come after you because lawsuits also cost money. Keeping the deposit after you bailed on them is considered good enough to cover their expenses to sell your car. However if they have difficulty selling the car you ordered, they have every legal right to come after you for the money. Read contracts carefully before you sign, and keep a paper trail of communications (which is what the GM was doing at Park Place when he said he would only communicate via email in this one case).

They also don't want to start trying to cancel orders they already placed with the manufacturer, because the manufacturer may just stop taking orders from them, and now they can't get any cars to sell. Cancellations cost the manufacturer too.

In the case of a dealer having to notify you of a delay in estimated delivery due to delays from the manufacturer, that's not the dealer's fault or anything they did or have control over, so taking them to court is just going to be a waste of time and money. Unless there was a stipulation in the contract that the car had to be delivered by a specific time, there's no grounds for a legal action. It would have to be something dealer-specific to have a basis for taking them to court. In this case, with a car model that hasn't even been produced and certified for the U.S. yet, it's even more unlikely you'd have a case.

All good points - for a real car. The one in question happens to be vaporware though.

 

[benjh1028]

Maybe some people don't realize that in the U.S. you don't buy from the manufacturer, you buy from the dealer. When you place an order with a dealer, they have to commit to that by ordering it from the manufacturer. The manufacturer then commits to ordering all the pieces necessary to build your car, and paying for everything (including labor) right up to and including shipping it to the dealer. They don't get paid by the dealer until they deliver the car to them. Once that happens, the dealer has to pay the manufacturer, and now has to collect the full amount from you, because they've already paid for the car.

The dealer can't just cancel your order because you want them to. They're on the hook for the car you ordered. If you don't pay for whatever reason, now they have to try and find a buyer. If you ordered a car with unusual options, or an unusual color combo, it may be very difficult for them to sell it, which is why they have the contracts about non-refundable deposits on a special order. If they can sell the car reasonably quickly, they usually won't come after you because lawsuits also cost money. Keeping the deposit after you bailed on them is considered good enough to cover their expenses to sell your car. However if they have difficulty selling the car you ordered, they have every legal right to come after you for the money. Read contracts carefully before you sign, and keep a paper trail of communications (which is what the GM was doing at Park Place when he said he would only communicate via email in this one case).

They also don't want to start trying to cancel orders they already placed with the manufacturer, because the manufacturer may just stop taking orders from them, and now they can't get any cars to sell. Cancellations cost the manufacturer too.

In the case of a dealer having to notify you of a delay in estimated delivery due to delays from the manufacturer, that's not the dealer's fault or anything they did or have control over, so taking them to court is just going to be a waste of time and money. Unless there was a stipulation in the contract that the car had to be delivered by a specific time, there's no grounds for a legal action. It would have to be something dealer-specific to have a basis for taking them to court. In this case, with a car model that hasn't even been produced and certified for the U.S. yet, it's even more unlikely you'd have a case.

I totally disagree here. If I’m told I better wire my money now if I want a car by Spring and then a week later it’s pushed out a year I call that a breach of contract. Verbal commitments matter in a court of law. Intent matters in a court of law. The law does apply reasonableness in deciding these matters. And it was reasonable for the buyer to expect his car within a reasonable time from when promised. I would argue a year (and likely longer) is NOT reasonable. Further, to be rushed to wire money in order to secure said production spot? I promise you these facts matter.

And with regards to the dealer model. Yes, they are at the mercy of the manufacturers. That’s the risk they assumed in being in this business and accepting deposits. Are we to expect that they should operate in a way no other business does in not having potential risk or downside? If I make a calculated gamble at work we lose money. It’s part of doing business.

And lastly, why do they have to be such dicks about this? Worried “if” they have to take delivery as a lot vehicle they can’t sell it? Shows a lot of faith in their product.

 

[Eagle7]

Lotus advised me directly that I could cancel and that I just needed to talk to Park Place. Park Place said no.

Chatted with an attorney but will cost about $10k to do anything, other than just send a letter, which he said I'm sure isn't the first time they've done this to someone so they will just ignore it. At this point just going to wait a year, get the car, then sell it. Have lost a solid five figures in the market over the past two weeks so may be better that they have the money. 😂

Well that's interesting. Lotus seems to be getting things done faster recently, so maybe i4's will start showing up later this year.

I hear ya about the stock market. I just liquidated some questionable holdings that were just speculation investments. I took a loss but that'll help lower my tax obligation for the other sales I made money on. Right now I just want my car. I'd rather be in it and driving it than looking at stock reports anyways.

 

[Eagle7]

I totally disagree here. If I’m told I better wire my money now if I want a car by Spring and then a week later it’s pushed out a year I call that a breach of contract. Verbal commitments matter in a court of law. Intent matters in a court of law. The law does apply reasonableness in deciding these matters. And it was reasonable for the buyer to expect his car within a reasonable time from when promised. I would argue a year (and likely longer) is NOT reasonable. Further, to be rushed to wire money in order to secure said production spot? I promise you these facts matter.

And with regards to the dealer model. Yes, they are at the mercy of the manufacturers. That’s the risk they assumed in being in this business and accepting deposits. Are we to expect that they should operate in a way no other business does in not having potential risk or downside? If I make a calculated gamble at work we lose money. It’s part of doing business.

And lastly, why do they have to be such dicks about this? Worried “if” they have to take delivery as a lot vehicle they can’t sell it? Shows a lot of faith in their product.

A lot depends on the circumstances, and whether or not the dealer was relaying the information in good faith they were receiving from the manufacturer. If this was a model already in production and being sold here, that would be a different story. We all know Lotus hasn't produced the i4 for the North American market yet. That makes it more likely that the dealer was operating on good faith from what they were being told by Lotus. In situations like this, the court tends to rely even more on what's in writing.

When you order a car that isn't in production and hasn't even been certified to be sold in the U.S. yet, that's the 'risk' you take when you put down your money. There may be delays (usually are) for reasons that have nothing to do with the dealer.

Park Place has been in business a long time. Business practices and policies are usually the result of experience. They've been a Lotus dealer a long time too. We've already seen what it's like doing business with Lotus; they haven't exactly covered themselves with glory in the communication and support department, and that also affects the dealers. I'm not saying this is a good situation, but if you sign a contract, it's on you to know what you're signing.

Park Place got an allocation of I believe 80 cars, and those were all customer orders. That's an $8,000,000 commitment from Park Place, with no real idea when they'd actually get the cars and be able to sell them. Meanwhile they have to keep the lights on and the doors open the whole time while not receiving a dime from Lotus sales yet.

It's been an unusual journey and situation all the way around, but the light at the end of the tunnel has begun to emerge and fortunately it wasn't an oncoming train; it's the headlights of Emiras being delivered.

 

[Fasttoys]

Maybe some people don't realize that in the U.S. you don't buy from the manufacturer, you buy from the dealer. When you place an order with a dealer, they have to commit to that by ordering it from the manufacturer. The manufacturer then commits to ordering all the pieces necessary to build your car, and paying for everything (including labor) right up to and including shipping it to the dealer. They don't get paid by the dealer until they deliver the car to them. Once that happens, the dealer has to pay the manufacturer, and now has to collect the full amount from you, because they've already paid for the car.

The dealer can't just cancel your order because you want them to. They're on the hook for the car you ordered. If you don't pay for whatever reason, now they have to try and find a buyer. If you ordered a car with unusual options, or an unusual color combo, it may be very difficult for them to sell it, which is why they have the contracts about non-refundable deposits on a special order. If they can sell the car reasonably quickly, they usually won't come after you because lawsuits also cost money. Keeping the deposit after you bailed on them is considered good enough to cover their expenses to sell your car. However if they have difficulty selling the car you ordered, they have every legal right to come after you for the money. Read contracts carefully before you sign, and keep a paper trail of communications (which is what the GM was doing at Park Place when he said he would only communicate via email in this one case).

They also don't want to start trying to cancel orders they already placed with the manufacturer, because the manufacturer may just stop taking orders from them, and now they can't get any cars to sell. Cancellations cost the manufacturer too.

In the case of a dealer having to notify you of a delay in estimated delivery due to delays from the manufacturer, that's not the dealer's fault or anything they did or have control over, so taking them to court is just going to be a waste of time and money. Unless there was a stipulation in the contract that the car had to be delivered by a specific time, there's no grounds for a legal action. It would have to be something dealer-specific to have a basis for taking them to court. In this case, with a car model that hasn't even been produced and certified for the U.S. yet, it's even more unlikely you'd have a case.

At this point of his deposit, I don't think the dealer has any active build allocations from Lotus for a car that is not being produced yet. I deal with this all the time as any dealer I have worked with in the past It is when an active allocation against that deposit is key, meaning the dealer is on the hook for building that car. Once that happens no refund on the deposit. Either way, I would not sign a document and give my money to ANY DEALER if it's not spelled out. Even on my Lotus Emira, I made the dealer send me documentation. My Z06 deposit of 3k was being held by the largest Corvette dealer for 3.5 years and last month I got it back in full as I have other options to get the build I want ASAP. When it comes to money you can never be too careful in the end it will be a learning experience.

 

[benjh1028]

Well that's interesting. Lotus seems to be getting things done faster recently, so maybe i4's will start showing up later this year.

I hear ya about the stock market. I just liquidated some questionable holdings that were just speculation investments. I took a loss but that'll help lower my tax obligation for the other sales I made money on. Right now I just want my car. I'd rather be in it and driving it than looking at stock reports anyways.

Eagle you still don’t have your car? Seems like there is a handful of you guys that have been waiting forever. Hope you hear something soon (and not the Lotus definition of soon).

 

[Eagle7]

Eagle you still don’t have your car? Seems like there is a handful of you guys that have been waiting forever. Hope you hear something soon (and not the Lotus definition of soon).

Yeah, those of us who ordered the earliest and thought we were first in line, are winding up to be the ones getting our cars last. The only consolation is we get our cars $11k cheaper, which isn't a bad consolation.

My car is on it's way to Park Place, should be there by Monday. I've already been called by my sales guy, and sent some paperwork he needed. I'm having it delivered to me by covered carrier, so I'm guessing I'll get it sometime in the first week of May. After all this time, and everything we've gone through in this forum, it's going to be a very surreal moment when the delivery carrier pulls up in front of my house. It will be the first time I'll actually see an Emira, and it will be mine!

 

[Fasttoys]

Yeah, those of us who ordered the earliest and thought we were first in line, are winding up to be the ones getting our cars last. The only consolation is we get our cars $11k cheaper, which isn't a bad consolation.

My car is on it's way to Park Place, should be there by Monday. I've already been called by my sales guy, and sent some paperwork he needed. I'm having it delivered to me by covered carrier, so I'm guessing I'll get it sometime in the first week of May. After all this time, and everything we've gone through in this forum, it's going to be a very surreal moment when the delivery carrier pulls up in front of my house. It will be the first time I'll actually see an Emira, and it will be mine!

IM me the carrier you are using please Congrats on your car.

 

[Eagle7]

IM me the carrier you are using please Congrats on your car.

I don't know the carrier yet. I asked my sales guy what service they use, and if the price is reasonable I'll go with them, otherwise I'll find one on my own. I'll let you know either way.