Lotus Emira vs 2023 Corvette Z06

[switchlanez]

There is some truth to "too much power for the streets." Such a simplification warrants some articulation. I interpret "for the streets" as 6 practical parameters where, to support more power, they start requiring compromise:

1. Weight
2. Size
3. Balance
4. Traction
5. Reliability
6. Cost

The C8 nails cost (#6) but at some compromise in the DCT's reliability (#5) which is a similar challenge Lotus faced with transmissions not supporting powers in excess of 430hp--and why the Radford 62-2 500hp and 600hp variants should have a DCT not offered in Lotuses to support those outputs. The C8 achieves balance (#3) and traction (#4) by simply rescaling size (#1) and weight (#2)--areas where more exotic marques compromise less by using more exotic packaging and materials costlier to both build and service/maintain (#6). I'm a fan of the C8's street presence but the more I see it on the street, the more I notice its absurd size and realize that's the trick in engineering a solution to support its performance within a budget.

V6 or i4 base Mustangs are more balanced to drive than the V8 Mustang GT. None are "too powerful" but it shows compromises are made in either direction. You start solving the compromises of those ~$30k-$35k Mustangs but throwing more than double that money priced into the Shelbys or Mach 1s. But then you start to question their values vs other options in that price range. And the cycle repeats up the sports car hierarchy.

Ultimately, you can solve all problems and never reach a point of "too much power" if parameter #6 (cost) is no object.

 

[FederGigant]

There is some truth to "too much power for the streets." Such a simplification warrants some articulation. I interpret "for the streets" as 6 practical parameters where, to support more power, they start requiring compromise:

1. Weight
2. Size
3. Balance
4. Traction
5. Reliability
6. Cost

The C8 nails cost (#6) but at some compromise in the DCT's reliability (#5) which is a similar challenge Lotus faced with transmissions not supporting powers in excess of 430hp--and why the Radford 62-2 500hp and 600hp variants should have a DCT not offered in Lotuses to support those outputs. The C8 achieves balance (#3) and traction (#4) by simply rescaling size (#1) and weight (#2)--areas where more exotic marques compromise less by using more exotic packaging and materials costlier to both build and service/maintain (#6). I'm a fan of the C8's street presence but the more I see it on the street, the more I notice its absurd size and realize that's the trick in engineering a solution to support its performance within a budget.

V6 or i4 base Mustangs are more balanced to drive than the V8 Mustang GT. None are "too powerful" but it shows compromises are made in either direction. You start solving the compromises of those ~$30k-$35k Mustangs but throwing more than double that money priced into the Shelbys or Mach 1s. But then you start to question their values vs other options in that price range. And the cycle repeats up the sports car hierarchy.

Ultimately, you can solve all problems and never reach a point of "too much power" if parameter #6 (cost) is no object.

Great post, however I have a more simple approach to why I think that you could have too much power. It was mentioned before that the gas paddle is not digital and that you don‘t have to use all your let‘s say 700hp all the time, which is true of course. If I face reality however, most cars only start to get engaging and fun when they get pushed. If I would only use 400 or less hp out of a 700hp drivetrain, the engine would just do it‘s thing without any stress, revs, or noise. Have you ever reved to the redline with the gas paddle pushed down by 27%? In the 400hp car the engine has to come really alive, give me everything it has, at max rev and all the sound that it could possibly produce which then leads to a more enjoyable and rewarding feel. I could just drive the 400hp car with the engine at 8 tenths upwards more often then I could the 700hp car.

 

[Pegasi]

My post isn't as technical as the two prior posts which were great explanations.

More than once I have purchased a car where the head technician or the sales person says, "This engine likes to be pushed." As previously mentioned, pushing 500+ on the streets or even 400+ on the streets can get dangerous/dicey/unpractical. In my personal experience, every performance engine I have had I have pushed and the engine did well for me over time.

This HP debate in my view is a need vs want argument.

Do I want more HP? YES, always.
Do I need more HP to enjoy the car? NO, the Emira has enough to maybe be one of the best cars I have had.

Finally, we all read about the car and watch the videos but sometimes we just ignore what's being sold. Lotus is talking about interior function, handling, and styling. They aren't talking about HP, they aren't promising power. It's a new chassis and a new interior, not a new engine.

 

[kratedisease]

Horsepower is like sex...... the more the better.

 

[Leonard]

Horsepower is like sex...... the more the better.

Rather have good sex once a week, than bad sex every day.
Has anyone mentioned the Vette ain't no looker...

 

[LotusB]

Great post, however I have a more simple approach to why I think that you could have too much power. It was mentioned before that the gas paddle is not digital and that you don‘t have to use all your let‘s say 700hp all the time, which is true of course. If I face reality however, most cars only start to get engaging and fun when they get pushed. If I would only use 400 or less hp out of a 700hp drivetrain, the engine would just do it‘s thing without any stress, revs, or noise. Have you ever reved to the redline with the gas paddle pushed down by 27%? In the 400hp car the engine has to come really alive, give me everything it has, at max rev and all the sound that it could possibly produce which then leads to a more enjoyable and rewarding feel. I could just drive the 400hp car with the engine at 8 tenths upwards more often then I could the 700hp car.

That's an extreme example and you know it. How about instead of 700hp we make it 450-500hp? Every journalist who's driven the EvoraGT has said it could use another 50hp and the Emira is already heavier and less powerful.

Let's also remember that the AMG I4, with its detuned 360hp engine is already targeting to outperform the 400hp V6, thanks to its torque (turbo). It's already been announced that the AMG I4 will overtake the V6 in terms of power in the future. You think people buying a non-detuned AMG M139 in the future will complain of too much power?

Lastly, I don't know if the car has throttle by wire, but between throttle actuation maps and fuel/timing maps, manufacturers are able to set up multiple modes. So those of you looking to mash on the throttle 100% and feel limits can do so in "wet" mode, for example.

 

[Pegasi]

That's an extreme example and you know it. How about instead of 700hp we make it 450-500hp? Every journalist who's driven the EvoraGT has said it could use another 50hp and the Emira is already heavier and less powerful.

I somewhat disagree with it being an extreme example. Most of the reviews I have seen on the Evora GT discussed handling and interior compromises maybe I missed where they called for more power. Instead of 450-500hp, how about 500-550hp? That's the problem, everyone is just throwing around numbers.

 

[FederGigant]

That's an extreme example and you know it. How about instead of 700hp we make it 450-500hp? Every journalist who's driven the EvoraGT has said it could use another 50hp and the Emira is already heavier and less powerful.

Let's also remember that the AMG I4, with its detuned 360hp engine is already targeting to outperform the 400hp V6, thanks to its torque (turbo). It's already been announced that the AMG I4 will overtake the V6 in terms of power in the future. You think people buying a non-detuned AMG M139 in the future will complain of too much power?

Lastly, I don't know if the car has throttle by wire, but between throttle actuation maps and fuel/timing maps, manufacturers are able to set up multiple modes. So those of you looking to mash on the throttle 100% and feel limits can do so in "wet" mode, for example.

I never heard of any reviewer that wanted more power from the Evora GT and I couldn‘t care less about what you just wrote, because I don’t wanna get philosophic about silly numbers. Both versions will be fast and that‘s great.

 

[ksegg]

I am not convinced the C8 will age well.

 

[xen]

GT4RS reviews out. 500bhp / PDK / 9,000rpm

Lauded as one the best driving experiences period. Not a mention of ‘too much power for the road’, quite the opposite.

No one’s suggesting you put 2,000bhp in the Emira or that it’s slow. The point is 400bhp is ok, circa 500 would be amazing, not compromise the car in any way and make for a better car.

 

[kratedisease]

400 Hp is Ferrari V8 in 2001 thru 2005

400 Hp is Corvette V8 in 2005

400 Hp is Lotus Evora 2010.

400Hp is so 2010-ish

 

[switchlanez]

GT4RS reviews out. 500bhp / PDK / 9,000rpm

Lauded as one the best driving experiences period. Not a mention of ‘too much power for the road’, quite the opposite.

No one’s suggesting you put 2,000bhp in the Emira or that it’s slow. The point is 400bhp is ok, circa 500 would be amazing, not compromise the car in any way and make for a better car.

Circles back to my price argument. Not too much power but more than Emira. But also 40% more expensive while penultimate base Cayman GT4 and GTS are comparable to Emira price and power-wise. If we ignore the power parameter, the RS's total package exceeds the GT4/GTS/Emira. Not just its power. Worth it? Between Porsche and Lotus, you seem to get the right power appropriate for the price you pay and total package you get.

I can think of cars where 300hp is too much and 500hp is not enough. You can't just look at power in vacuum but a total package of parameters. You can keep adding more power by scaling other parameters such that there's never "too much power" given a price supports all the scaling.

 

[FederGigant]

Circles back to my price argument. Not too much power but more than Emira. But also 40% more expensive while penultimate base Cayman GT4 and GTS are comparable to Emira price and power-wise. If we ignore the power parameter, the RS's total package exceeds the GT4/GTS/Emira. Not just its power. Worth it? Between Porsche and Lotus, you seem to get the right power appropriate for the price you pay and total package you get.

I can think of cars where 300hp is too much and 500hp is not enough. You can't just look at power in vacuum but a total package of parameters. You can keep adding more power by scaling other parameters such that there's never "too much power" given a price supports all the scaling.

Where exactly do you get the GT4RS for only 40% more than the Emira?

 

[xen]

Circles back to my price argument. Not too much power but more than Emira. But also 40% more expensive while penultimate base Cayman GT4 and GTS are comparable to Emira price and power-wise. If we ignore the power parameter, the RS's total package exceeds the GT4/GTS/Emira. Not just its power. Worth it? Between Porsche and Lotus, you seem to get the right power appropriate for the price you pay and total package you get.

I can think of cars where 300hp is too much and 500hp is not enough. You can't just look at power in vacuum but a total package of parameters. You can keep adding more power by scaling other parameters such that there's never "too much power" given a price supports all the scaling.

You’re missing one of the key points though (whilst incidentally making mine):

The exact i4 engine already costed and in use in the Emira is good for 500hp!

We’re not looking at power in a vacuum, we’re looking at power in the Emira. People are conflating a profitability decision for an engineering / “for the drivers” one.

 

[Leonard]

You’re missing one of the key points though (whilst incidentally making mine):

The exact i4 engine already costed and in use in the Emira is good for 500hp!

We’re not looking at power in a vacuum, we’re looking at power in the Emira. People are conflating a profitability decision for an engineering / “for the drivers” one.

This is all bonkers talk. Yes you want more power, but you ain't getting it because the Emira is priced and aimed at competing with a car that guess what...is the same price and has the same power!
The engine argument isn't an argument or do we expect Golf Rs to be running 550bhp out the box for RRP also....

 

[FederGigant]

You’re missing one of the key points though (whilst incidentally making mine):

The exact i4 engine already costed and in use in the Emira is capable of 500hp!

So you think you could make this engine run safely at 500hp in the Emira without any further expanse? I really doubt that. I guess it would require another 10.000€ (turbo, cooling, brakes, exhaust, etc.) and also weight of course to make It work whilst including factory warranty. Another thing is that with the bigger turbo that you would require, the low end torque will be gone and you could then enjoy an even bigger turbo lag than it already has. Great setup for a British sports car on twisty British B roads AMG knows how to build engines, but they are no wizards and a tiny fourpot will always stay a fourpot. That’s why they only went with 421hp. For anything more that will come in the near future (C63) they are going hybrid. First to make sure they won‘t overstress the engine, second because turbo lag would be an issue if you squeeze out even more of the i4.
It‘s a great engine and fits the Emira and Lotus in general really well, but not at 500hp. I would take any bet that we will never see a 500hp factory fit Emira ever.

 

[switchlanez]

You’re missing one of the key points though (whilst incidentally making mine):

The exact i4 engine already costed and in use in the Emira is capable of 500hp!

Configuration and cost in developing cooling and air induction solutions to reliably generate 500hp amidship is not identical to a 500hp front engine version.

Even different exhaust routing between the GT3 vs GT4 RS due to one being mid-engine with suspension obstructions vs rear engine and no obstructions affect power output despite both having the same flat-6 4.0 engine.

 

[switchlanez]

Where exactly do you get the GT4RS for only 40% more than the Emira?

Just a quick google of the most objective measuring stick--MSRP. Comparing marked up prices starts going off the rails in subjectivity and moving goal posts.

 

[xen]

Seems the central premise on this power debate is being splintered into different conversations and being lost. Let me spell out my position in its entirety a bit clearer.

Let’s use an easier number to preclude the modification conversation - 450hp. We can all agree the i4 can safely, with a factory tune push 450hp right?

Why doesn’t it? The argument here is that it’s because any more power will be ‘unusable’ on the road and not engaging or fun. My point is it’s not. The engine is being gimped (against the 405 it’s makes in China trim) to push the V6 as the performance model in markets where the V6 is sold (I presume the V6 margins are better).

It’s also (an informed guess) being held back for a future ‘final edition / GT or whatever monicker you choose to use. These decisions are driven purely by bottom line considerations - which I have no problem at all with.

The Emira chassis, if engineered the way we all presume it is will gladly take more power in its stride and be a faster more performant car. If lotus were to make a 500hp Emira, it wouldn’t be worse or have ‘too much power’ for the road.

 

[xen]

So you think you could make this engine run safely at 500hp in the Emira without any further expanse? I really doubt that. I guess it would require another 10.000€ (turbo, cooling, brakes, exhaust, etc.) and also weight of course to make It work whilst including factory warranty. Another thing is that with the bigger turbo that you would require, the low end torque will be gone and you could then enjoy an even bigger turbo lag than it already has. Great setup for a British sports car on twisty British B roads AMG knows how to build engines, but they are no wizards and a tiny fourpot will always stay a fourpot. That’s why they only went with 421hp. For anything more that will come in the near future (C63) they are going hybrid. First to make sure they won‘t overstress the engine, second because turbo lag would be an issue if you squeeze out even more of the i4.
It‘s a great engine and fits the Emira and Lotus in general really well, but not at 500hp. I would take any bet that we will never see a 500hp factory fit Emira ever.

So…I don’t drive on twisty British B roads and let’s be honest Lotus today is about as British as a tikka masala so I’m not sure what that has to do with anything. That and the car’s biggest market will like be China.