Lotus Emira vs 2023 Corvette Z06

[Leonard]

Seems the central premise on this power debate is being splintered into different conversations and being lost. Let me spell out my position in its entirety a bit clearer.

Let’s use an easier number to preclude the modification conversation - 450hp. We can all agree the i4 can safely, with a factory tune push 450hp right?

Why doesn’t it? The argument here is that it’s because any more power will be ‘unusable’ on the road and not engaging or fun. My point is it’s not. The engine is being gimped (against the 405 it’s makes in China trim) to push the V6 as the performance model in markets where the V6 is sold (I presume the V6 margins are better).

It’s also (an informed guess) being held back for a future ‘final edition / GT or whatever monicker you choose to use. These decisions are driven purely by bottom line considerations - which I have no problem at all with.

The Emira chassis, if engineered the way we all presume it is will gladly take more power in its stride and be a faster more performant car. If lotus were to make a 500hp Emira, it wouldn’t be worse or have ‘too much power’ for the road.

Again, we all know what it can do, but the V6 is competing with a Cayman GTS with 400bhp and the i4 the Cayman S with 365bhp. It also has to hit a pricepoint to compete with both of these models.
That is all there is to it.
As you say at a point in time Lotus will have their GT4RS moment with increased power and it will be brilliant no doubt and priced accordingly

 

[switchlanez]

A 400hp Emira seems to have the right power for its price. A 450hp Emira--plus everything added to support that power level--would have the right power for its price. Neither too much power, neither too little.

All other things being equal, 450hp dropped into the current Emira package might be too much power for its manual transmission based on what we've seen with other special edition Lotuses being limited to 430hp and the Radford 62-2 ditching the manual for some other DCT to support 500hp+. Want more power? Sure, just need to pay for it and all supporting accoutrements like an Evora GT430 to the tune of $150k+. Or a 500hp+ Radford 62-2 for $400k+.

Would be nice to have 410hp or 416hp from the latter Evoras but my guess is emissions got stricter somewhere and Lotus chose to subsidize cost for us by making it universally emissions compliant with one global 400hp tune. Evora GT or GT410 starting prices were more than the Emira's so all seem priced appropriately for their power. If emissions weren't the issue, you may say it wouldn't cost Lotus anything more to use those existing Evora tunes. True, but then it will still cost more to recoup the development and assembly line retooling costs dedicated to the Emira which would bring price back up to Evora levels. So they dropped power by 10-16hp to drop price (again, assuming emissions remained unchanged globally) which is more an annoyance than a deal breaker. No company gives their very best iteration at bargain prices on 1st year model launch. Not Toyota, not GM, and certainly not Lotus who can't even leverage economies of scale like them. Lotus needs to sustain some profitability to stay in business with much lower volume sales. I believe the Emira's current price and power are fair, keeping both the customers and Lotus in earnest.

 

[LotusB]

Love how we're moving the goal posts.

Initial argument is that there's no need for extra power, because the car won't be balanced... it'll be too much. Once the Cayman is shown as an example.... well it's the price now, it's no longer the balance or "too much."

Also @switchlanez we already know why we can't have more than ~430hp with the V6 Emira. Even at that power level, we're exceeding the specs of the Toyota EA60 transmission (https://www.dee-ltd.co.uk/powertrain/ea62.html) which is rated to 400Nm (or ~295 ft lbs of torque). The automatic is rated higher at 450Nm/330lb ft of torque, which is why Lotus tunes them for more torque (around 10 ft-lb difference, if memory serves).

Your examples of some one-off cars, especially the Radford are completely off-base. Lotus could have spent funds on engineering and installing a Getrag/Tremec DCT transmission. I believe Komo-tec is using the Getrag transmissions. But instead they invested in the design of the car as well as the plant, to reduce the price and pump out more cars. I can't blame them from a business perspective, but I'd gladly pay more for more power.

Anyway, I digress, the point is that the chassis can handle more and will handle more once the I4 becomes the dominant platform and Lotus iterates on the cooling design. The M139 in the Mercedes S is tuned to 416hp/369 ft lbs (500Nm)... so the chassis could definitely handle a more powerful V6. We just won't get it because of the transmission and everyone will make excuses that it's by design, because more would be too much.

 

[switchlanez]

Love how we're moving the goal posts.

Initial argument is that there's no need for extra power, because the car won't be balanced... it'll be too much. Once the Cayman is shown as an example.... well it's the price now, it's no longer the balance or "too much."

Also @switchlanez we already know why we can't have more than ~430hp with the V6 Emira. Even at that power level, we're exceeding the specs of the Toyota EA60 transmission (https://www.dee-ltd.co.uk/powertrain/ea62.html) which is rated to 400Nm (or ~295 ft lbs of torque). The automatic is rated higher at 450Nm/330lb ft of torque, which is why Lotus tunes them for more torque (around 10 ft-lb difference, if memory serves).

Your examples of some one-off cars, especially the Radford are completely off-base. Lotus could have spent funds on engineering and installing a Getrag/Tremec DCT transmission. I believe Komo-tec is using the Getrag transmissions. But instead they invested in the design of the car as well as the plant, to reduce the price and pump out more cars. I can't blame them from a business perspective, but I'd gladly pay more for more power.

Anyway, I digress, the point is that the chassis can handle more and will handle more once the I4 becomes the dominant platform and Lotus iterates on the cooling design. The M139 in the Mercedes S is tuned to 416hp/369 ft lbs (500Nm)... so the chassis could definitely handle a more powerful V6. We just won't get it because of the transmission and everyone will make excuses that it's by design, because more would be too much.

Not moving any goal posts, just including all parameters into the big picture because we're buying a whole car, not just a hp figure.

Never said the chassis can't handle more power. My argument says 6 parameters can be affected when power is added and they aren't all chassis. Could be something as simple as better brakes and, thus, price. Or at the very least, development costs for a reliable mid-engine i4 solution. We're saying the same thing in different ways. I'm just more explicitly acknowledging it's not always a simple matter of adding hp without changing absolutely anything from the current price and config.

 

[mjw930]

Just a quick google of the most objective measuring stick--MSRP. Comparing marked up prices starts going off the rails in subjectivity and moving goal posts.

The Weisach spec he was driving has a $195000 MSRP, in US trim.

 

[mjw930]

Seems the central premise on this power debate is being splintered into different conversations and being lost. Let me spell out my position in its entirety a bit clearer.

Let’s use an easier number to preclude the modification conversation - 450hp. We can all agree the i4 can safely, with a factory tune push 450hp right?

Why doesn’t it? The argument here is that it’s because any more power will be ‘unusable’ on the road and not engaging or fun. My point is it’s not. The engine is being gimped (against the 405 it’s makes in China trim) to push the V6 as the performance model in markets where the V6 is sold (I presume the V6 margins are better).

It’s also (an informed guess) being held back for a future ‘final edition / GT or whatever monicker you choose to use. These decisions are driven purely by bottom line considerations - which I have no problem at all with.

The Emira chassis, if engineered the way we all presume it is will gladly take more power in its stride and be a faster more performant car. If lotus were to make a 500hp Emira, it wouldn’t be worse or have ‘too much power’ for the road.

The 405HP number for China has been debunked. Matt Windle confirmed to a member here that was a mistake and the spec for the i4 is 360 bhp globally.

 

[switchlanez]

The Weisach spec he was driving has a $195000 MSRP, in US trim.

I'm sure it is. But to give my opposition the full benefit of the doubt, I'm talking horsepower matched to a bare minimum viable price and config package signed off by an OEM to come stock from factory rather than what options happened to be checked off for a press car.

 

[LotusB]

Not moving any goal posts, just including all parameters into the big picture because we're buying a whole car, not just a hp figure.

Never said the chassis can't handle more power. My argument says 6 parameters can be affected when power is added and they aren't all chassis. Could be something as simple as better brakes and, thus, price. Or at the very least, development costs for a reliable mid-engine i4 solution. We're saying the same thing in different ways. I'm just more explicitly acknowledging it's not always a simple matter of adding hp without changing absolutely anything from the current price and config.

The response wasn't specifically to you, it was broadly to the thread.

This is a hypothetical conversation anyway, we don't have the option for more power directly from Lotus. We won't until they install a DCT (not happening) or they optimize the I4 in the future.

The point is that some people are saying they wish for more power, while others say it's unnecessary and would be too much. The reality is that the Evora is a heavier and less powerful version of the Evora GT and so any excuses as to having too much power or the power would overwhelm the chassis is straight up BS.

I want this car with more power. Will I get that power? Nope, not from the factory. Not without modifications. Just like I won't get a lot of other little features I wish for in a car. Will it stop me from getting the car? Nope. Doesn't change the fact that just like the Evora could use some additional power, so will the Emira.

 

[kratedisease]

would have been atleast a bit better for this platform if the v6 was 450hp minimum and the I4 was 400hp on launch.....IMO

would have been better also if the paint pallet was also more diverse, simple flat black, flat white and flat red can't be that difficult to spray as compared to the metallics.

 

[xen]

The 405HP number for China has been debunked. Matt Windle confirmed to a member here that was a mistake and the spec for the i4 is 360 bhp globally.

When was this? There’s a thread on this on the lotus forums.

You know the number is still on the Lotus Chinese website (their home market) today? It doesn’t cross you as odd they’d leave an error on an official channel for months?

How would it work if you order a 405hp car only to be told it’s 360hp months later?

Finally…Matt might be the CEO of lotus but he has bosses he reports to.

 

[mjw930]

When was this? There’s a thread on this on the lotus forums.

You know the number is still on the Lotus Chinese website (their home market) today? It doesn’t cross you as odd they’d leave an error on an official channel for months?

How would it work if you order a 405hp car only to be told it’s 360hp months later?

Finally…Matt might be the CEO of lotus but he has bosses he reports to.

It was on a different forum and the comment from Wendell was that it was a mistake on the website though it seems odd it was identified months ago but it has not changed on the site. But to be precise, I just looked and it says 400 HP, not 405……

 

[RCL]

The c8 z06 looks amazing, won't ever get one though. Not passionate about the chevy brand, no manual, no thanks. If I want a fast automatic car I'll get a tesla.

 

[4380r]

It was on a different forum and the comment from Wendell was that it was a mistake on the website though it seems odd it was identified months ago but it has not changed on the site. But to be precise, I just looked and it says 400 HP, not 405……

Call me a cynic, but I think folks quoting inside information directly from Matt himself, on the down low, should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not saying anyone is deliberately providing false info, but Matt is a CEO of a company launching a brand new product world wide. Under such circumstances the information flow is fairly tightly controlled, and at deliberate pace. It's not likely the CEO is giving inside info to some enthusiast who sent him an email out of the blue.

He IS a pretty accessible guy. Connect with him on LinkedIn and he'll chat with you. He is a brand ambassador, but don't expect the inside skinny on anything he hasn't been authorized to share.

 

[Johnson]

The design of the C8 is confounding… in some aspects it’s sharp and clunky, in others it looks absolutely awesome.

Although I’m more interested in the factory faults that keep popping up. This latest article is a doosey:

https://www.corvetteforum.com/artic...uild-quality-issues-are-complaints-warranted/

 

[Climber]

Exterior=Emira wins, Z06 styling just too busy.
Interior=Z06 wins, lots of sweet carbon fiber, like the driver focused cockpit layout.
Driver involvement, engagement=Emira offers a proper manual transmission.
Power=Z06 by a huge margin 400 vs 670hp.
Engine=Z06 wins, high revving V8, flat-plane crank.
Sound=Z06
Who would have thought a Corvette could sound like a Ferrari.
Pricing....very similar.
Overall Size=Emira wins, I personally prefer a smaller car.
Wheels=Z06 wins carbon fibre wheels are you kidding me.
Would have been an awesome bonus if the Emira had a removable roof panel like the Z06 and Exige.
View attachment 3934

I want a convertible emira, a targa emira or just a removable roof panel… love convertibles that is the biggest plus for the Zo6 the red one in the infomercials rocks!

 

[kratedisease]

The design of the C8 is confounding… in some aspects it’s sharp and clunky, in others it looks absolutely awesome.

Although I’m more interested in the factory faults that keep popping up. This latest article is a doosey:

https://www.corvetteforum.com/artic...uild-quality-issues-are-complaints-warranted/

statistically, with the volume that chevy pumps out ( 30k to 40k per year) there is no way to make sure every car is perfect. impossible.

but even with that huge volume, I really doubt that the C8 is worse quality than the EVORA.

we shall see about the EMIRA once production starts.

 

[digilotus]

The design of the C8 is confounding… in some aspects it’s sharp and clunky, in others it looks absolutely awesome.

Although I’m more interested in the factory faults that keep popping up. This latest article is a doosey:

https://www.corvetteforum.com/artic...uild-quality-issues-are-complaints-warranted/

Using shims/washers to align body panels was also common with Lotus, especially in front clams in the Elise. Hand built meant hand tolerances rather than finer machine tolerances you can achieve with robotic automation.

The C8 has a composite body so probably suffers from larger tolerances for body panel thickness as compared to cut/pressed metal body panels with very controlled thickness.

Lets hope that stuff like this doesn't pop up in the Emira either given its got composite body panels. As Matt Windle says, "quality, quality, quality". Fingers crossed!

 

[4thedrivers]

Went to the NY Auto show yesterday. Chevy had several ZO6's on display. A base coupe and a Z07 optioned vert.
Warming up to the styling, but a bit clunky from certain angles. The car is by no means small. Really appreciate the tidy dimensions of the Emira. JLR was a no-show btw

 

[LotusB]

Went to the NY Auto show yesterday. Chevy had several ZO6's on display. A base coupe and a Z07 optioned vert.
Warming up to the styling, but a bit clunky from certain angles. The car is by no means small. Really appreciate the tidy dimensions of the Emira. JLR was a no-show btw

I only saw the Z07 optioned one... pictures here: https://www.lotustalk.com/threads/z06-pics.488659/

It's a pretty sizable car!

 

[Eagle7]

I only saw the Z07 optioned one... pictures here: https://www.lotustalk.com/threads/z06-pics.488659/

It's a pretty sizable car!

How was the ingress/egress? On that one pic of the kid looking up at you from the passenger side, it looks like the door sills are pretty wide.