Now $105k in the USA. I’m not seeing the value

[Magma]

Curious what everyone stance will be once Porsche announces its "Dramatic" price increase for all model for the 2024 model year change over in a couple months. It's not just Lotus.

Porsche is in a different league (branding, dealer network, reliability) and won't be effected by the price increase like Lotus. Especially as Lotus plans to go full EV.

I agree with others who's stated that if the Emira was originally introduced as a $100+k car, the deposit list wouldn't be so long. It was pretty much a bait and switch.

 

[CarGuy07]

If Porsche was to have a major rice increase, they will see a drop in sales. It’s already priced out of range for the majority of people. 718s approaching $100K; 911s start around $100K. A Carrera S is something like $130-150K optioned out. It’s pretty damn expensive. Same with other luxury brands such as Rolex. Everything has a price. At some point, it just makes less sense. For example, I am in love with a Daytona and would still buy one at current MSRP of $14.5K. It is, however, getting more difficult to justify the price. If they bumped the price up to $18K + tax, I’d most likely be out. It’s simply too much.

 

[Cachaco131]

Unfortunately I fear Lotus will find out how much of a psychological barrier it is in the US. I can tell you without hesitation, if the FE had been priced at the new $105k rate at launch I would not have placed a deposit. Not because it's that different of a price, but because it shifts the thinking dramatically for a middle class person with a family. Over $100k it goes from something that's an indulgent but workable financial stretch, to something that's categorically inappropriate.

I see many middle class owners of a Tesla X. I also see a desire to project a certain image, that puts personal finances aside. I don't think 100k is what it used to be.

 

[Porter]

I may have agreed with you back in the day when vehicles were realistically priced. I bought a 2004 fully loaded Toyota 4Runner in Dec 2003 for $28,500 out the door (which I still have), today a similarly equipped 4Runner is MSRP'd at $53,724. Sure there is more gadgetry in the new one, but mine is just as capable and purpose serving as the new. Back then an Emira would be $70kish car, so is it really unrealistic for it to be priced where it is now? For me, this is not a daily driver, it's for fun and possibly a bit of reliving my youth. When I was young and care free I had the MR2's, NSX's, Corvette's, and they all went away because a sport car is not a practical car for a only car by any stretch of the imagination. I feel this is an indulgence for sure, but to say categorically inappropriate? I say a new 2023 Ford F150 Limited starting at $84,910 for a pickup truck is categorically inappropriate. My 2 cents of course.

Wages across the economy haven't increased commensurate to match that shift in pricing, so I think the practical restraint still applies for smart personal money management. It would be one thing if that $53k Toyota was the same percentage of income as it was in 2004, but it's not.

I agree with you 100% on the F150 pricing... it's so obviously inflated that I don't know why major articles aren't being written castigating automakers for this stuff.

It has taken interest rates finally jumping up to something rational to put the brakes on the runaway corporate price-fixing train, and despite my personal angst at the new cost of borrowing, intellectually I think it's a good thing that something is finally putting some compensating pressure against prices and the spectacular growth of profit margins. Corporate earnings reports certainly aren't showing a significant costs pressure... the price inflation ratchet upward has been largely opportunistic.

 

[Porter]

I see many middle class owners of a Tesla X. I also see a desire to project a certain image, that puts personal finances aside. I don't think 100k is what it used to be.

I saw an interesting statistic that the significant majority of Tesla owners are men under the age of 40. That's sort of incredible, if you think about it. Most of those are Model 3, at around $45k-$55k or so, but still, there's status signaling and gadget culture at work there. Also the theoretical environmental cred, together with the US tax rebate, makes the "man math" go to work overtime.

 

[lion shf]

Curious what everyone stance will be once Porsche announces its "Dramatic" price increase for all model for the 2024 model year change over in a couple months. It's not just Lotus.

My stance will be this

 

[Cachaco131]

I saw an interesting statistic that the significant majority of Tesla owners are men under the age of 40. That's sort of incredible, if you think about it. Most of those are Model 3, at around $45k-$55k or so, but still, there's status signaling and gadget culture at work there. Also the theoretical environmental cred, together with the US tax rebate, makes the "man math" go to work overtime.

Indeed. I think I read in the NYT or WSJ that the average new car price in the US is 47k and that climbs up to 66k for EVs. Here in CA EVs are a very common sighting. I have several employees with sub 100k salaries that own model 3, S and Y. And their aspiration is an X. I won't judge them but seems like a large % of their income in car payments.

"Value" aside, after all this EV and inflation wave, I now feel less shame owning 100k+ cars. My personal limit is 150k, I think I'd feel bad past that.

 

[ltullos]

Yes it is over priced, for a FE V2 as it will not have the Advanced Driver Assistance System (ADAS) options that I feel all cars should have in this price range. Think "Blind Spot/Lane Change Monitor", and the like..... And, I'm not sure if the FE V2 will have more exterior color options and/or interior color, stitching, etc. options, yet for $105K it should. Plus the Warranty at 3yr/36K miles, is weak for a $105 car - Most others in this category offer a 4yr/50K mile warranty.

I agree that you can spec out a Porsche 718 GTS 4.0 with more choices and options for under $105K, and there are allocations available at no ADM if you hunt for them, yet your wait time is in the 1.5 +/- year time frame. So similar to the Emira.

My bottom line is that after the initial "Hype" of a new Lotus, and the "I must have one" folks get theirs, a more normal market for the Emira will occur with 6 month lead times, more choices for colors and options, etc., less quality issues, and thus the price of $105K becomes more in line with the competition.

So I'm staying with my Oct '22 deposit which puts me in the mid 2025 time frame for an Emira. And since I have and currently own several Porsches over the years, and wish to try something "different"....... a wait for a Non-FE Emira might turn out to be a good thing.

I'm more concerned with further price increases from USD depreciation that is likely to occur before 2025

 

[Porter]

Curious what everyone stance will be once Porsche announces its "Dramatic" price increase for all model for the 2024 model year change over in a couple months. It's not just Lotus.

It depends on how "dramatic" they are talking about. They have a real danger of killing part of their brand appeal across the board if they pivot too hard to serve the independently-wealthy luxury buyer and exclude everyone else.

The whole brand ethic, and the thing that makes Porsche "tasteful" compared to the supercar brands like Ferrari and Lamborghini, is that they were always a normal-people-accessible product that achieved an incredibly high standard of quality and execution through the practical magic of artfully restrained design coupled with German engineering and production. If the product goes hard-luxury with a price floor of $120k+, they are going to lose that aura.

Continuing to ape/mimic the Bahaus design minimalism without the core restraint of the ethic will turn the brand into a caricature. That's profitable for a few cycles but is a recipe for long-term decline, because the nouveau-riche who gamed the market or cashed out on crypto who are throwing away $200k a unit on these things won't necessarily keep that wealth in the long term.

 

[Magma]

If Porsche was to have a major rice increase, they will see a drop in sales. It’s already priced out of range for the majority of people. 718s approaching $100K; 911s start around $100K. A Carrera S is something like $130-150K optioned out. It’s pretty damn expensive. Same with other luxury brands such as Rolex. Everything has a price. At some point, it just makes less sense. For example, I am in love with a Daytona and would still buy one at current MSRP of $14.5K. It is, however, getting more difficult to justify the price. If they bumped the price up to $18K + tax, I’d most likely be out. It’s simply too much.

A drop in sales for Porsche can't even be compared to a drop in sales for Lotus when Lotus literally has 3 models for sale and one isn't even on the table for 99.9% of people.

 

[dgrace]

The Evora was demonstrably overpriced, given there were plenty sitting around unsold in dealer showrooms in 2021. Lotus made a big splash with the Emira announcement in large part due to the amazing value proposition. (check out this blast from the past: https://www.emiraforum.com/threads/prices.233/) Too amazing, as it turns out. Now that the Emira will be priced like the Evora it's really going to test the market. Pricing it just where buyers have second thoughts is really the right place to be, but I agree the 6-figure psychological barrier is a major one in the US, especially for a car which is purely for fun. (i.e. you can't expense an Emira for your interior contracting business like you can with an $80k F250)

 

[kitkat]

Curious what everyone stance will be once Porsche announces its "Dramatic" price increase for all model for the 2024 model year change over in a couple months. It's not just Lotus.

Price increases above the board don't absolve Lotus for all their other failures to deliver a promised product on time and at a price. There's a whole lot of whataboutism in this forum to make excuses for legitimate critiques.

For all the excuses about other companies experiencing:
- Chip shortages
- China part supplier lockdowns
- Regulatory approval delays
- Price increases

The other companies are still producing and delivering vehicles to their customers.

 

[morphious]

My stance will be this

A BMW?

 

[kitkat]

The Evora was demonstrably overpriced, given there were plenty sitting around unsold in dealer showrooms in 2021. Lotus made a big splash with the Emira announcement in large part due to the amazing value proposition. (check out this blast from the past: https://www.emiraforum.com/threads/prices.233/) Too amazing, as it turns out. Now that the Emira will be priced like the Evora it's really going to test the market. Pricing it just where buyers have second thoughts is really the right place to be, but I agree the 6-figure psychological barrier is a major one in the US, especially for a car which is purely for fun. (i.e. you can't expense an Emira for your interior contracting business like you can with an $80k F250)

Entirely agree with your assessment. My dealer had 4 or 5 Evoras for sale still when I put my reservation down on the Emira, and they were simply too expensive and offered considerably less value with an aged look.

 

[morphious]

Indeed. I think I read in the NYT or WSJ that the average new car price in the US is 47k and that climbs up to 66k for EVs. Here in CA EVs are a very common sighting. I have several employees with sub 100k salaries that own model 3, S and Y. And their aspiration is an X. I won't judge them but seems like a large % of their income in car payments.

"Value" aside, after all this EV and inflation wave, I now feel less shame owning 100k+ cars. My personal limit is 150k, I think I'd feel bad past that.

My dad was a doctor and the most Luxury car he bought was 1998 Lexus ES300 (which is my current daily until the Emira), and was always blown away with all the nurses and other admin staff just starting their medical careers living in apartments driving cars twice if not more than he drove.

 

[morphious]

It depends on how "dramatic" they are talking about. They have a real danger of killing part of their brand appeal across the board if they pivot too hard to serve the independently-wealthy luxury buyer and exclude everyone else.

The whole brand ethic, and the thing that makes Porsche "tasteful" compared to the supercar brands like Ferrari and Lamborghini, is that they were always a normal-people-accessible product that achieved an incredibly high standard of quality and execution through the practical magic of artfully restrained design coupled with German engineering and production. If the product goes hard-luxury with a price floor of $120k+, they are going to lose that aura.

Continuing to ape/mimic the Bahaus design minimalism without the core restraint of the ethic will turn the brand into a caricature. That's profitable for a few cycles but is a recipe for long-term decline, because the nouveau-riche who gamed the market or cashed out on crypto who are throwing away $200k a unit on these things won't necessarily keep that wealth in the long term.

The price hike announcement came after Porsche announced that it had an operating profit of more than $7 billion last year and an 18-percent profit margin. That’s a lot of profit, but according to Meschke, it’s also too low. He would prefer to see a 20-percent profit in the future. Thus the higher prices.

 

[Cutting42]

Price increases above the board don't absolve Lotus for all their other failures to deliver a promised product on time and at a price. There's a whole lot of whataboutism in this forum to make excuses for legitimate critiques.

For all the excuses about other companies experiencing:
- Chip shortages
- China part supplier lockdowns
- Regulatory approval delays
- Price increases

The other companies are still producing and delivering vehicles to their customers.

Except they are still affected seriously. Yes massive companies like VW or Toyota or Ford can still get some stuff out the door but with big delays and limited options list. The big German three have 12 month delays for basic models and even longer for fancier stuff.

My company is tiny but has a fleet of around 500 cars in europe and many leases are in their 5th year of a 3 year lease becasue we cannot get cars. It may not suit the bash Lotus narrative but they are very low on the pecking order for supplies of components and even being Geely owned, I am sure that helps but Geely are not that big either in car terms.

Delays are getting better and supplies are easing but it is still real

 

[lion shf]

A BMW?

It’s a Toyota silly.

 

[Davebeats]

My stance will be this

I currently drive a RAV4 Hybrid and going into the Toyota service department is one of the worst experiences I've ever had. Previously had an Audi and it is a night and day difference.

 

[Hell4Leather]

With the sheer amount of people who think their Emira is going to be a daily driver, I'm fairly certain those people would be better supported by a Porsche.

And the Evora wasn’t a daily?