Theory 1 Thoughts?

Well, I was surprised by the reveal on 9.16.24 of the Theory 1 by Lotus.

Obviously a concept car. Thoughts?

Who really thinks this will become a production car? Since they started the name with a “T” in theory, doubt it gets produced as all cars historically start with an “E”. Maybe they will change it to “Eory”

Lotus Theory 1 - Our new design manifesto | Lotus Cars

Theory 1 is the first expression our new design philosophy, based on three core principles: Digital, Natural, Analogue.

www.lotuscars.com

 

[Six Speed Stephen]

I really like the front design, but not the 3/4 rear

 

[Timepoor]

Part Lambo (front)/Part Cybertruck (rear quarter)

I think it looks a lot better in the ~1min promotional video they put up. I think just not the direction a lot of us want from Lotus. I am fine if they have EV offerings but as soon as the Emira/ICE is gone there is nothing there for me.

 

[Lotustoronto]

I already gave some thoughts in the other thread... But after reading a few more reviews and specs here is why I think this Lotus is absolutely a true Lotus, despite it being EV.

1. It has Lotus in the design language, especially from the Esprit wedge shape. Which in the 70's was ahead of its time, even before Lambo's. I think it's a very good looking car.

2. Under 3,527 Lbs. (as per R&T article) That less than the current 911 Turbo, C8 corvette, Maserati MC20, Lambo Aventador... all ICE vehicles, you get the idea. No EV sports car comes remotley close to this weight. Yes, it's a concept car - but I don't think Lotus has the budget to just build random one off vehicles to not sell. This is the preview of Type 135.

3. 986 BHP with 0-60 time under 2.5 sec

4. Interior is really futuristic, can't see much of it going into type 135. Perhaps the Lotuswear / haptic seats will make it in.

How can someone claim that this isn't true to the Lotus Ethos. I love the Emira and the manual transmission, but this is a damn cool EV sports car, with some serious performance numbers and true Lotus weight savings. This far exceeded my expectations for what the type 135 would be. I was thinking more along Caterham Project V - this is clearly aiming directly for Porsche, and not the Boxster/Cayman either. This is 911 Turbo S / Ferrari 296 / Mclaren Artura levels of performance. Can't see how the pricing for type 135 will be anywhere under 150K USD come 2028.

 

[GetawayDriving]

I already gave some thoughts in the other thread... But after reading a few more reviews and specs here is why I think this Lotus is absolutely a true Lotus, despite it being EV.

1. It has Lotus in the design language, especially from the Esprit wedge shape. Which in the 70's was ahead of its time, even before Lambo's. I think it's a very good looking car.

2. Under 3,527 Lbs. (as per R&T article) That less than the current 911 Turbo, C8 corvette, Maserati MC20, Lambo Aventador... all ICE vehicles, you get the idea. No EV sports car comes remotley close to this weight. Yes, it's a concept car - but I don't think Lotus has the budget to just build random one off vehicles to not sell. This is the preview of Type 135.

3. Less weight than the Caterham Project V

4. 986 BHP with 0-60 time under 2.5 sec

5. Interior is really futuristic, can't see much of it going into type 135. Perhaps the Lotuswear / haptic seats will make it in.

How can someone claim that this isn't true to the Lotus Ethos. I love the Emira and the manual transmission, but this is a damn cool EV sports car, with some serious performance numbers and true Lotus weight savings. This far exceeded my expectations for what the type 135 would be. I was thinking more along Caterham Project V - this is clearly aiming directly for Porsche, and not the Boxster/Cayman either. This is 911 Turbo S / Ferrari 296 / Mclaren Artura levels of performance. Can't see how the pricing for type 135 will be anywhere under 150K USD come 2028.

I like the Theory 1, but the Caterham Project V is only 2,620 lbs, vs. ~3,500 for Theory 1. That's a pretty big difference. Project V has a 55 kWh battery vs. the Lotus 70, and only 276hp vs. Lotus 900+, but I think the Caterham is a bit truer to what Lotus has traditionally been - less weight, less power.

The EV Boxster is also supposed to be 3,500 lbs, and that car is a production vehicle where you're not sitting directly on a carbon tub. Either Lotus is seriously under-promising on the weight of this thing, which would be silly on a showcase concept, or something is seriously wrong here. Where is all of that weight? The Porsche will have a convertible top, power leather seats, all of the modern safety kit and luxuries while the Lotus has only 10 visible materials and you're sitting on an all-carbon tub and there's barely any accoutrements...

So I don't know where that leaves Lotus. If Theory 1 is 3,500 lbs I'm scared to know what Type 135 is. Unless they are telling us this so that we don't get sticker-shocked be a 3,500 lb eventual weight of the 135.

Also, they should have called it a Europa. That's all I see out back.

Edit:

What have I done.

 

[Lotustoronto]

I like the Theory 1, but the Caterham Project V is only 2,620 lbs, vs. ~3,500 for Theory 1. That's a pretty big difference. Project V has a 55 kWh battery vs. the Lotus 70, and only 276hp vs. Lotus 900+, but I think the Caterham is a bit truer to what Lotus has traditionally been - less weight, less power.

The EV Boxster is also supposed to be 3,500 lbs, and that car is a production vehicle where you're not sitting directly on a carbon tub. Either Lotus is seriously under-promising on the weight of this thing, which would be silly on a showcase concept, or something is seriously wrong here. Where is all of that weight? The Porsche will have a convertible top, power leather seats, all of the modern safety kit and luxuries while the Lotus has only 10 visible materials and you're sitting on an all-carbon tub and there's barely any accoutrements...

So I don't know where that leaves Lotus. If Theory 1 is 3,500 lbs I'm scared to know what Type 135 is. Unless they are telling us this so that we don't get sticker-shocked be a 3,500 lb eventual weight of the 135.

Also, they should have called it a Europa. That's all I see out back.

Edit:

What have I done.

View attachment 51766

I fixed my post - yes caterham V at first glance seems much more lotus - but than again Caterham is a Lotus…

I don’t know how Boxster EV comes in at 3500 lbs, unless it’s going for caterham v performance levels and not so great range. I will be interested on how they do the 718 EV’s.

As for theory 1 - on paper it’s performance is supercar not sports car. Type 135 is suppose to be Emira replacement, but I feel like Lotus just keeps moving up market. My guess is Type 135 has changed to compete in supercar territory and will probably carry 911 Turbo price tag along with it. Lotus is really turning upmarket with its pricing….it does make sense considering vision 80 was created in a pre-covid world. A lot has changed since 2018 when all of these plans / ideas got started with Evija. I guess there really isn’t a top tier heritage sports car brand that has super car EV. That doesn’t cost 1M+ … perhaps Tesla Roadster?

 

[Blackthought_]

It’s stupid. Next question

 

[Tomwa]

I don't think it's a 135 Showcase. I don't think we will see much if any styling from it end up there. Unlike the clear translation from Evija to Emira.

I don't think it is anything like "Lotus Ethos" to overly complicate the User Interface/touch controls. I don't think it's anything like Lotus Ethos to throw 1000 hp at a car to achieve performance.

I agree that EVs can be exciting, the Caterham mentioned above is pretty high on my list as far as that goes. The hyundai N Vision 74 also I think looks and would fit the part, assuming it went for simple EV rather than the hydrogen system.

Lotus will have very few ways to uniquely solve the weight problem of EVs. If battery tech improves, then they won't be alone in the benefit. Maybe they'll pay some exclusive access and Toyota or whoever else is developing next-gen batt tech will decide to not splash in the same puddle.

It's about as silly and stupid as many other prototype car design studies. I think we are just used to low production volume ultra-performance cars being created and sold for money far more than makes sense. I don't think this is that. (Again...looking at you Evija)

I can't blame anyone for being excited about the Lotus EV future, but it hasn't even delivered on its current halo car and that was decidedly "Not lotus" when that came out. 2000 hp? ok.. i guess that attracts *some* kind of customer.

 

[seriously]

I’m guessing the Evija got Geely to buy in to the concept of a high end Lotus EV future. The Theory 1 is the conceptualization of that future. In that way the Theory 1 makes sense. doesn’t mean we have to like it.

The caterham EV is where we all WANT Lotus to go. But the Theory 1 is where it’s going.

Makes me feel that the Emira is not just the last ICE Lotus. The Emira is the last Lotus. Maybe one of the best that Lotus ever made.

 

[Lotustoronto]

I don't think it's a 135 Showcase. I don't think we will see much if any styling from it end up there. Unlike the clear translation from Evija to Emira.

I don't think it is anything like "Lotus Ethos" to overly complicate the User Interface/touch controls. I don't think it's anything like Lotus Ethos to throw 1000 hp at a car to achieve performance.

I agree that EVs can be exciting, the Caterham mentioned above is pretty high on my list as far as that goes. The hyundai N Vision 74 also I think looks and would fit the part, assuming it went for simple EV rather than the hydrogen system.

Lotus will have very few ways to uniquely solve the weight problem of EVs. If battery tech improves, then they won't be alone in the benefit. Maybe they'll pay some exclusive access and Toyota or whoever else is developing next-gen batt tech will decide to not splash in the same puddle.

It's about as silly and stupid as many other prototype car design studies. I think we are just used to low production volume ultra-performance cars being created and sold for money far more than makes sense. I don't think this is that. (Again...looking at you Evija)

I can't blame anyone for being excited about the Lotus EV future, but it hasn't even delivered on its current halo car and that was decidedly "Not lotus" when that came out. 2000 hp? ok.. i guess that attracts *some* kind of customer.

Interesting take... I will say the fact that the Chinese are leaps and bounds ahead of everyone in battery tech (except maybe Tesla) at the moment, going to Toyota makes zero sense, considering they are owned by Geely.

Lotus' of the past competed with the likes of Ferrari and Porsche. Yes their engines weren't the selling feature and they got there by power to weight ratio instead of trying to win the HP race. A Caterham V is a good EV effort, but lacks performance and range. I personally don't see the appeal to an EV that gives less performance and less emotion than an ICE. One or the other. Lotus's Theory 1 is showing how to give emotion to a vehicle in the EV world - using design, haptic materials, artistic doors, etc.. 1000 BHP @ 3,500 Lbs is firmly supercar territory. I suspect it won't be priced as a supercar however. (200K USD+) If Lotus is going to survive and built 5-10K sports cars per year, it can't be competing against Caterham's in terms of performance. They need to look at Porsche Mission X and target it as far as a concept car. Sorry but the Caterham V won't be in that discussion.

 

[Tomwa]

Also an interesting take.

I wouldn't count Toyota out just yet. I mention them fairly intentionally as they are the only ones with a roadmap which includes bringing solid-state batteries to market. (Target is 2027). Supposed to be a massive weight and volume savings coupled with faster charging and less battery degradation from charge/discharge cycles.

I think the problem is, the space to sell expensive high performance EVs is crowded. The kind of performance you can get from an EV6 GT means the bar is set incredibly high.

It's not my call to make, but chasing Porsche with both it's Taycan and Mission E sounds... unrealistic. Producing another "hyper EV" that will sell 5-10 a year is not going to save the company.

Let's not forget Tesla will have the Roadster Mk2 one day and their general skateboard approach means they are one design proof from starting pre-orders on a 1200hp DeLoren clone, or whatever other body they want to slap on top.

As silly as it is, the sports car that is missing for EVs is the impractical, fun, Mustang, Alpine, or God forbid they get small enough and light enough to do an Elan or Miata appropriately.

 

[Lotustoronto]

Also an interesting take.

I wouldn't count Toyota out just yet. I mention them fairly intentionally as they are the only ones with a roadmap which includes bringing solid-state batteries to market. (Target is 2027). Supposed to be a massive weight and volume savings coupled with faster charging and less battery degradation from charge/discharge cycles.

I think the problem is, the space to sell expensive high performance EVs is crowded. The kind of performance you can get from an EV6 GT means the bar is set incredibly high.

It's not my call to make, but chasing Porsche with both it's Taycan and Mission E sounds... unrealistic. Producing another "hyper EV" that will sell 5-10 a year is not going to save the company.

Let's not forget Tesla will have the Roadster Mk2 one day and their general skateboard approach means they are one design proof from starting pre-orders on a 1200hp DeLoren clone, or whatever other body they want to slap on top.

As silly as it is, the sports car that is missing for EVs is the impractical, fun, Mustang, Alpine, or God forbid they get small enough and light enough to do an Elan or Miata appropriately.

Right but a Taycan Turbo GT weighs 5100 lbs. - So at 3,600 lbs it's a featherweight (for an EV). Theory 1 would have performance and feel around corners / track to a Ferrari SF90 or Lambo Reveualto rather than a Kia EV6 GT. If they price this EV in the Sub 200K range, I think they can sell the 5K units per year, easily.

 

[Gprodigy]

Looking at it, I think it's one of those rare cases where the production car may look better than the concept once revealed. (esp refining those faceted headlights)

I respect lotus for their mission keeping it as light weight as possible by introducing new innovations.

The 3 person cabin is pretty fun as well. The doors are cool, but he hinge is awkward.

 

[Tomwa]

Right but a Taycan Turbo GT weighs 5100 lbs. - So at 3,600 lbs it's a featherweight (for an EV). Theory 1 would have performance and feel around corners / track to a Ferrari SF90 or Lambo Reveualto rather than a Kia EV6 GT. If they price this EV in the Sub 200K range, I think they can sell the 5K units per year, easily.

Problem is. If this could be done with todays tech and materials...it would already be done.
3500 lbs with EV tech, without going for small small batteries and modestly sized coil motors is just not currently possible.

Which means you have to go exotic and expensive on materials. You have to use the carbon tub they are hinting at, rather than current lotus bonded aluminum.

If we took everything the Emira is today, including manufacturing costs, and just replaced everything ICE with EV components, I think you'd already be over 200k as an entry price. You'd way overshoot your 3500 goal, and while you'd easily be able to upscale your motors with minimal extra weight over a more modest one, you wouldn't be anywhere near 1000 hp. Maybe 5-600hp.

So. now you move to exotic manufacturing like carbon tubs. Well...I don't think Lotus has any facilities that can handle that at scale, and generally speaking autoclaves, pre-preg carbonfiber, large multi-piece moulds, and structural components that have to be examined and then bonded together all sounds way more expensive. Then we have the batteries, battery frame, cooling components.

CZinger is the closest I can think of that is delivering anything similar. 2750 Lbs. 1250 hp. with Hybrid turbocharged v8.
Drop the V8, increase battery sizes to accommodate for range. and the Czinger is a $1.2 million dollar car.

But the Czinger shows off the technology under the skin, because its the magic sauce to achieve the insanely low weight. (as well as a narrow carbon tub structure). The Theory 1 however...is trying to show off all the technology literally at skin deep. Which...really tells you nothing about how they could possibly achieve their claims. Let alone at a 'approachable cost'.

 

[EmirOfDenmark]

Instead of investing into visionary vehicles, Lotus would be better off in investing into optimising their supply chain so that the customers are served in time.

But looks cool, like the idea.

 

[Speedluvver]

I think it's a desperate attempt to get some focus on Lotus as a brand - The Electre and Emeya are not selling partly due to being electric, and partly because no-one understands the 'lifestyle' product. Then there is the 100% China tax in the US.
The Emira isn't as successful as they hoped due to many factors (covid etc etc), but mostly because they don't seem to have learnt anything about customer service and how to compete with the likes of Porsche

I hope the 135 will move the goal posts - but lets see..

 

[Nick in Sydney]

The Emira isn't as successful as they hoped due to many factors

I agree with some of your points, but this statement is wrong.

Emira has been more successful than Lotus ever dreamed. They were taken completely by surprise by the level of demand it generated. Remember, Lotus only sold just over 6,000 Evoras across 14 variants and 11 years of production. Emira will have beaten that by the end of this year (effectively the second year of deliveries)

 

[Lotustoronto]

Problem is. If this could be done with todays tech and materials...it would already be done.
3500 lbs with EV tech, without going for small small batteries and modestly sized coil motors is just not currently possible.

Which means you have to go exotic and expensive on materials. You have to use the carbon tub they are hinting at, rather than current lotus bonded aluminum.

If we took everything the Emira is today, including manufacturing costs, and just replaced everything ICE with EV components, I think you'd already be over 200k as an entry price. You'd way overshoot your 3500 goal, and while you'd easily be able to upscale your motors with minimal extra weight over a more modest one, you wouldn't be anywhere near 1000 hp. Maybe 5-600hp.

So. now you move to exotic manufacturing like carbon tubs. Well...I don't think Lotus has any facilities that can handle that at scale, and generally speaking autoclaves, pre-preg carbonfiber, large multi-piece moulds, and structural components that have to be examined and then bonded together all sounds way more expensive. Then we have the batteries, battery frame, cooling components.

CZinger is the closest I can think of that is delivering anything similar. 2750 Lbs. 1250 hp. with Hybrid turbocharged v8.
Drop the V8, increase battery sizes to accommodate for range. and the Czinger is a $1.2 million dollar car.

But the Czinger shows off the technology under the skin, because its the magic sauce to achieve the insanely low weight. (as well as a narrow carbon tub structure). The Theory 1 however...is trying to show off all the technology literally at skin deep. Which...really tells you nothing about how they could possibly achieve their claims. Let alone at a 'approachable cost'.

When Lotus created the Elise, they developed a completely new way to make a chassis. Using extruded aluminium and bonding. This was never done before in the automotive world and was a complete success. At the time this was a very exotic chassis.

Now they are doing the same thing but using carbon and a different technique in manufacturing the chassis and you are saying it can't be done in a financially feasible manner.

I think it can be done, if applied at scale. The issue is that no one is willing to create a EV sports car as all the major brands that could sell one (Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, Aston etc.) already make very good and very fast ICE/Hybrid sports cars that people want. Why spend millions into development for something they don't think the market / customer is ready for.

Times are changing and as the years tick by the purchasers of new sports/super cars will be used to EV's. People in their 20's become 30 and those buyers do not have the same angst in buying an EV. We can see the change happening slowly, as Ferrari is opening its first EV plant and will soon launch its own halo EV type product. Porshce has already said the Mission X concept will replace the 918 Spyder. As we know these Halo products tech will trickle down into their EV sports cars over the years.

One more interesting fact - Ben Payne was the designer of the NIO EP9. This was a Hyper EV that launched back in 2016 I believe. Yes they were selling them for 1.5M but this was at the leading edge of EV tech 8 years ago. Ben Payne's team developed the EP9 and it was built and sold well before any Evija delivery (which was launched around the same time). EP9 also did very well at the ring, so not just straight line performance. We all love Russel Carr's design language of Evija and Emira, but perhaps some of the other teams at Lotus are rightfully being replaced. Anyway, I hope theory 1 can morph into type 135 and rightfully compete with Porsche and Ferrari in the EV space. It is where they should be - let's just hope they can keep the price of type 135 under the 200K mark.

 

[MickOpalak]

this is a damn cool EV sports car

You used "cool" and "EV sports car" in the same sentence. Oops.

 

[Six Speed Stephen]

I agree with some of your points, but this statement is wrong.

Emira has been more successful than Lotus ever dreamed. They were taken completely by surprise by the level of demand it generated. Remember, Lotus only sold just over 6,000 Evoras across 14 variants and 11 years of production. Emira will have beaten that by the end of this year (effectively the second year of deliveries)

This is what I don't get. The Emira is a massive success. Why not just keep putting out products like that?