Throwing codes

kitkat · Jun 4, 2023

Kimmax said:
Well it was fun while it lasted. Throwing new codes, limp mode, parking brake service, didn’t want to start, etc.
Guess it’s time for an ECU replacement and harness check -_-
Dropping it tomorrow for the 5th or 6th time at the dealers…

Yeah this is what I was afraid of when I mentioned checking the O2 sensors and wiring down to the ECM. We’ve seen reports of the wiring harness having issues and the ECM failing. Bad harness or bad ECM can cause all of these things. I would have hoped the dealer would have checked the harness too while replacing the sensor.

Kimmax · Jun 4, 2023

kitkat said:
Yeah this is what I was afraid of when I mentioned checking the O2 sensors and wiring down to the ECM. We’ve seen reports of the wiring harness having issues and the ECM failing. Bad harness or bad ECM can cause all of these things. I would have hoped the dealer would have checked the harness too while replacing the sensor.

This time they will, I’ll make sure of that. I could imagine a bad ground somewhere. The variety of issues this time basically limits it to a ground issue, a short somewhere or an ECU fault. I won’t take the car back without a good explanation so let’s see where this goes..

Eagle7 · Jun 4, 2023

Quick way to test for ground issues is take a jumper cable, and connect one end to the ground strap connection point, or one of the bolts holding the ECU to the ground, and connect the other end to the negative terminal of the battery. If everything suddenly runs fine, then you know you have a weak ground somewhere between the battery and the ECU.

Check under the ECU to make sure paint or something that would interfere with ground isn't on the connector, the underside of the ECU, or the ground point. If all that's clean, look to see how the negative terminal of the battery is connected to the ground plane of the car. Is there a side wire/cable that comes off the main line that connects to the ECU? How is it branched off? Is it a connector? Typically this might look like a Y connector of some kind. Check to see if the connections at that connector are tight. Might even pull the ones that can come loose, and check to see if there's any oxidation/corrosion inside on the connector plugs.

There are few things more annoying or time consuming than trying to troubleshoot and track down electric gremlins. Sometimes a quick way is to use that jumper cable method to test sections of wiring from one point to another, to see if there's a problem in that one section.

Hopefully the dealer is able to track down the issue, but it certainly doesn't hurt to do some pre-checking yourself.

Kimmax · Jun 4, 2023

Eagle7 said:
Quick way to test for ground issues is take a jumper cable, and connect one end to the ground strap connection point, or one of the bolts holding the ECU to the ground, and connect the other end to the negative terminal of the battery. If everything suddenly runs fine, then you know you have a weak ground somewhere between the battery and the ECU.

Check under the ECU to make sure paint or something that would interfere with ground isn't on the connector, the underside of the ECU, or the ground point. If all that's clean, look to see how the negative terminal of the battery is connected to the ground plane of the car. Is there a side wire/cable that comes off the main line that connects to the ECU? How is it branched off? Is it a connector? Typically this might look like a Y connector of some kind. Check to see if the connections at that connector are tight. Might even pull the ones that can come loose, and check to see if there's any oxidation/corrosion inside on the connector plugs.

There are few things more annoying or time consuming than trying to troubleshoot and track down electric gremlins. Sometimes a quick way is to use that jumper cable method to test sections of wiring from one point to another, to see if there's a problem in that one section.

Hopefully the dealer is able to track down the issue, but it certainly doesn't hurt to do some pre-checking yourself.

That’s very helpful and good input, thanks a lot

Concept24 · Jun 4, 2023

Over the past 30 years or so in many states (US), dealerships would send head-scratching electrical challenges to "Auto - Electric" shops, primarily because the service techs at the dealerships tend to not be experts in this field of troubleshooting, and if the service manual is not quite thorough enough for every possible scenario.

Eagle7 · Jun 4, 2023

Concept24 said:
Over the past 30 years or so in many states (US), dealerships would send head-scratching electrical challenges to "Auto - Electric" shops, primarily because the service techs at the dealerships tend to not be experts in this field of troubleshooting, and if the service manual is not quite thorough enough for every possible scenario.

Electrical issues are an absolute bear to troubleshoot. I once spent an entire day helping a friend troubleshoot his VW Bug because the lights wouldn't turn on. We replaced bulbs, fuses, cleaned battery terminals, etc. I even bypassed the dash switch with a small jumper cable to hardwire it on. No go. I literally had to crawl through with a multimeter, testing section after section to finally find the problem. Right behind one of the blade connectors to the tail light bulb on the passenger side, the wire inside the strain-relief sheath of the connector wire had broken. There was nothing visible from the outside to show this. I found it with meter testing the wiring. There was power going into that wire from the fuse box, but no power at the end where the light bulb was. I had to trace test the wiring all the way from the fuse box to the light bulb to find that particular issue.

Over the years (it was an old early 60's VW) due to the many times that connector had been pulled off, reconnected, or jostled by anything being done in the engine compartment, at some point the wiring inside had just given up the ghost. The wiring also looked oxidized when I cut it open, so it had been exposed to air for awhile at some point in it's life.

I never did figure out why that would take down the entire light system (headlights and tail lights) but once I made a fresh cut on the wire and put a new connector on, the lights were golden. I had been steadily cleaning connectors and things as I was going along, so there may have been more than one issue at fault. However, after spending the better part of a Saturday working on it, I didn't want to put in any more time. The lights were now working and that was all Dave cared about, so I was more than happy to call it good.

The only thing a service manual is good for in those kinds of situations, is the wiring diagram to show fuse boxes, wiring and connectors along the various points of the wiring harnesses. They can be especially helpful if there happens to be an inline fuse somewhere along the wiring, which are SUCH a blast to discover, after you've checked the main fuse boxes and thought everything was good. Especially if the sadists that design assembly have put something in the way that you just can't quite reach around, to get at the fuse connector to disconnect it and check the fuse. It's always something that's a nightmare to either partially disassemble so you can move it, or have to completely remove. There's always that ONE DAMNED SCREW/BOLT that you can't see, and can't reach with your hand, wrench, or socket. So it's a trip to the store to find a swivel extension or something you can use, along with a small mirror on an extension rod so you can see what you're doing.

Owning older sports cars was part joy when they ran right, and part masochism when they didn't because you usually did your own work for the most part. I hope the Emira is more refined, although with computers now being involved, that adds the possibility of electronic gremlins as well as mechanical ones. Hopefully by this time next year, I'll have my car and have joined the rest of you in the joys of ownership.

lion shf · Jun 5, 2023

Eagle7 said:
Quick way to test for ground issues is take a jumper cable, and connect one end to the ground strap connection point, or one of the bolts holding the ECU to the ground, and connect the other end to the negative terminal of the battery. If everything suddenly runs fine, then you know you have a weak ground somewhere between the battery and the ECU.

Check under the ECU to make sure paint or something that would interfere with ground isn't on the connector, the underside of the ECU, or the ground point. If all that's clean, look to see how the negative terminal of the battery is connected to the ground plane of the car. Is there a side wire/cable that comes off the main line that connects to the ECU? How is it branched off? Is it a connector? Typically this might look like a Y connector of some kind. Check to see if the connections at that connector are tight. Might even pull the ones that can come loose, and check to see if there's any oxidation/corrosion inside on the connector plugs.

There are few things more annoying or time consuming than trying to troubleshoot and track down electric gremlins. Sometimes a quick way is to use that jumper cable method to test sections of wiring from one point to another, to see if there's a problem in that one section.

Hopefully the dealer is able to track down the issue, but it certainly doesn't hurt to do some pre-checking yourself.

And don’t forget to do this on your brand new 100k car

ott · Jun 5, 2023

I have experienced similar issues, going to limp mode and engine light on. My dealer Komotec was informed by Lotus, that its software problem and new improved version, which is suppoused to fix the issue will be released by end of June. My Oct delivery car was already flashed with “improved“ software in April to fix wiper problem, before there was no problem with engine management while I did over 1000 miles last year. So it seems like they fixed one problem, but created another.

Kimmax · Jun 5, 2023

ott said:
I have experienced similar issues, going to limp mode and engine light on. My dealer Komotec was informed by Lotus, that its software problem and new improved version, which is suppoused to fix the issue will be released by end of June. My Oct delivery car was already flashed with “improved“ software in April to fix wiper problem, before there was no problem with engine management while I did over 1000 miles last year. So it seems like they fixed one problem, but created another.

I was just updated to the latest versions on all systems on my last visit (before the issues started) and honestly I’ll not take a "clear codes and go" this time

I dropped it off today and told them not to rush it, check everything throughout and we’ll see

ott · Jun 5, 2023

When I asked them just to clear the codes, dealer said it’s not worth the effort as it doesn’t fix the problem. They have several cars with same problem. Have to wait for new version of software. Probably my car was flashed with same “latest” version what you have. Now Lotus is saying its no good.

Concept24 · Jun 5, 2023

Eagle7 said:
Electrical issues are an absolute bear to troubleshoot. I once spent an entire day helping a friend troubleshoot his VW Bug because the lights wouldn't turn on. We replaced bulbs, fuses, cleaned battery terminals, etc. I even bypassed the dash switch with a small jumper cable to hardwire it on. No go. I literally had to crawl through with a multimeter, testing section after section to finally find the problem. Right behind one of the blade connectors to the tail light bulb on the passenger side, the wire inside the strain-relief sheath of the connector wire had broken. There was nothing visible from the outside to show this. I found it with meter testing the wiring. There was power going into that wire from the fuse box, but no power at the end where the light bulb was. I had to trace test the wiring all the way from the fuse box to the light bulb to find that particular issue.

Over the years (it was an old early 60's VW) due to the many times that connector had been pulled off, reconnected, or jostled by anything being done in the engine compartment, at some point the wiring inside had just given up the ghost. The wiring also looked oxidized when I cut it open, so it had been exposed to air for awhile at some point in it's life.

I never did figure out why that would take down the entire light system (headlights and tail lights) but once I made a fresh cut on the wire and put a new connector on, the lights were golden. I had been steadily cleaning connectors and things as I was going along, so there may have been more than one issue at fault. However, after spending the better part of a Saturday working on it, I didn't want to put in any more time. The lights were now working and that was all Dave cared about, so I was more than happy to call it good.

The only thing a service manual is good for in those kinds of situations, is the wiring diagram to show fuse boxes, wiring and connectors along the various points of the wiring harnesses. They can be especially helpful if there happens to be an inline fuse somewhere along the wiring, which are SUCH a blast to discover, after you've checked the main fuse boxes and thought everything was good. Especially if the sadists that design assembly have put something in the way that you just can't quite reach around, to get at the fuse connector to disconnect it and check the fuse. It's always something that's a nightmare to either partially disassemble so you can move it, or have to completely remove. There's always that ONE DAMNED SCREW/BOLT that you can't see, and can't reach with your hand, wrench, or socket. So it's a trip to the store to find a swivel extension or something you can use, along with a small mirror on an extension rod so you can see what you're doing.

Owning older sports cars was part joy when they ran right, and part masochism when they didn't because you usually did your own work for the most part. I hope the Emira is more refined, although with computers now being involved, that adds the possibility of electronic gremlins as well as mechanical ones. Hopefully by this time next year, I'll have my car and have joined the rest of you in the joys of ownership.

I once worked with a guy who had once owned a garage that specialized in VW bug repair. He said that a common issue was solved by removing the rear seat that over time would cause a connector to disengage. Bad design but a fairly simple fix.

Kimmax · Jun 5, 2023

ott said:
When I asked them just to clear the codes, dealer said it’s not worth the effort as it doesn’t fix the problem. They have several cars with same problem. Have to wait for new version of software. Probably my car was flashed with same “latest” version what you have. Now Lotus is saying its no good.

If that's the case they can downgrade, release a new version with rolled-back code (if they can't downgrade), or send me an older ECU. Don't really care at this point. If the fix takes as long as the wipers.. no thanks.
I'll not take a car back that doesn't start reliably. I can live with everything, but I'll not be playing the "Can I pull off from the lot/gas station this time" game.

ott · Jun 6, 2023

By end of June it will be 3 months when my car has been at the dealer.

If this really is only software related, all cars using same version should have same issue. Which is most probably not the case, otherwise we would see more complaints here and dealer would have more than few cars sitting at forecourt.

Nice car, but terribly bad technical support in case of problems.

Kimmax · Jun 6, 2023

Car was checked already and it’s interesting to say at least.
The new O2 Sensor is.. broken again. Lotus isn’t aware of a bad production batch, but here we are. A replacement was ordered and is due to arrive in 1-2 days.
Engine harness and ground connections were checked, as well as ECU and connectors in between. No faults here. As @kitkat suggested before, the sensors on both banks were swapped and the problem followed suit, so it at least _seems_ it’s really the sensor.
As far as the other problems go, those were probably introduced with the updates applied - and they seem to match other owners reports here, at least the parking brake and non-starting issue. There were another set of updates ready which were applied again.
Regarding the P1014/P223D code the exhaust valve was relearned. I recall that being done after taking delivery initially as well, so it might be a result of the ECU being reset on the last visit.

Everything was handled in conjunction with Lotus HQ, so the mechanics up the chain are definitely up to date.

Car should be ready in the next week, curious how far I can get this time

Lotus Hamburg is a blast to work with btw, hope Lotus knows to count themselves lucky to be backed by capable locals.

kitkat · Jun 6, 2023

Kimmax said:
Car was checked already and it’s interesting to say at least.
The new O2 Sensor is.. broken again. Lotus isn’t aware of a bad production batch, but here we are. A replacement was ordered and is due to arrive in 1-2 days.
Engine harness and ground connections were checked, as well as ECU and connectors in between. No faults here. As @kitkat suggested before, the sensors on both banks were swapped and the problem followed suit, so it at least _seems_ it’s really the sensor.
As far as the other problems go, those were probably introduced with the updates applied - and they seem to match other owners reports here, at least the parking brake and non-starting issue. There were another set of updates ready which were applied again.
Regarding the P1014/P223D code the exhaust valve was relearned. I recall that being done after taking delivery initially as well, so it might be a result of the ECU being reset on the last visit.

Everything was handled in conjunction with Lotus HQ, so the mechanics up the chain are definitely up to date.

Car should be ready in the next week, curious how far I can get this time

Lotus Hamburg is a blast to work with btw, hope Lotus knows to count themselves lucky to be backed by capable locals.

So you're throwing P0157 and P2273 again with the new O2 sensor in there and you also got the equivalent codes for low voltage and stuck rich in bank 1 when swapping them over?

This is rather particular and contradictory as swapping indicates it's the sensor itself and yet two sensors failing in a row indicates that something is destroying the sensor.

dgrace · Jun 6, 2023

Well it's a good thing Lotus's future models don't have any major dependency on electricity! :>

Kimmax · Jun 7, 2023

kitkat said:
So you're throwing P0157 and P2273 again with the new O2 sensor in there and you also got the equivalent codes for low voltage and stuck rich in bank 1 when swapping them over?

This is rather particular and contradictory as swapping indicates it's the sensor itself and yet two sensors failing in a row indicates that something is destroying the sensor.

P0157 seems unrelated to O2 while 223D seems to be bank unspecific. It only started throwing low voltage etc when at the dealer already so I didn’t see them myself, but I was told the codes followed to the other bank when swapping. Live data also shows invalid data for the new sensor. So two sensors failed in a row, same position.

EFE · Jun 7, 2023

kitkat said:
So you're throwing P0157 and P2273 again with the new O2 sensor in there and you also got the equivalent codes for low voltage and stuck rich in bank 1 when swapping them over?

This is rather particular and contradictory as swapping indicates it's the sensor itself and yet two sensors failing in a row indicates that something is destroying the sensor.

today my Emira went into limp mode and stopped in Switzerland on the first day of our driving holiday on the way to the Alps. Lotus Lucern, Switzerland were brilliant in dropping everything to help us. It’s not running yet and they are still working on, so any ideas welcome.

Although sensor show too lean it is actually over fuelling one bank of three cylinders. The top lean signal appears to be sending more fuel and destroying sensors. (Two sensors so far). Also exhaust are covered with black soot and smell of petrol from engine.

what is causing it and why only one bank?

kitkat · Jun 7, 2023

EFE said:
today my Emira went into limp mode and stopped in Switzerland on the first day of our driving holiday on the way to the Alps. Lotus Lucern, Switzerland were brilliant in dropping everything to help us. It’s not running yet and they are still working on, so any ideas welcome.

Although sensor show too lean it is actually over fuelling one bank of three cylinders. The top lean signal appears to be sending more fuel and destroying sensors. (Two sensors so far). Also exhaust are covered with black soot and smell of petrol from engine.

what is causing it and why only one bank?

Either faulty wiring / ecu or ecu programming is all I can think of at this point. Hope your car isn't too far from home since you were on your first day of your trip. If it's anything like the others I suspect you won't be getting your car running well for a while.

EFE · Jun 8, 2023

kitkat said:
Either faulty wiring / ecu or ecu programming is all I can think of at this point. Hope your car isn't too far from home since you were on your first day of your trip. If it's anything like the others I suspect you won't be getting your car running well for a while.

1200km from our home in England

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