Anyone seeing rust on V6 rear subframe?

[JimH]

This is actually quite surprising. I just can't imagine in my head a Lotus facility where there are rows of welders on production benches, and a large scale hot dip galvanizing tank dunking the production output in an 860°F/460°C bath of molten zinc. Seems like the kind of thing that they would outsource because it's not their area of expertise.

Not that surprising - Lotus were fabricating steel chassis (e.g. Esprit, both Elans, etc.) long before extruded aluminium was introduced in the late 1990's for the Elise - even then the aluminium chassis fabrication was originally outsourced to Hydro in Norway for a number of years before being brought into the UK first in Worcester in 2008, then moved to Norwich and combined with steel fabrication where production of aluminium chassis began in 2021 alongside steel fabrication......

 

[spice]

He is correct about the airbag recall , I received this form Lotus , and I didn’t take the car ?

 

[Nick in Sydney]

As someone who worked for a decade in a business that manufactured complex scientific equipment in China, I can say that there is absolutely a difference in assumed baseline quality standards between European and Chinese manufacturing companies. And a wildly different set of assumptions and cultural norms around whether initial quality should be expected to continue into bulk order #2 or #3.

True. But that's not the same as saying that very high qualify manufacturing can't be consistently achieved in China under the right conditions. There are plenty of Chinese, Korean, European and American businesses doing so.
(typed on my iPhone . . . that was made in China)

 

[Porter]

True. But that's not the same as saying that very high qualify manufacturing can't be consistently achieved in China under the right conditions. There are plenty of Chinese, Korean, European and American businesses doing so.
(typed on my iPhone . . . that was made in China)

Oh I totally agree. I just don't know whether the Lotus staff in Hethel have the kind of political clout in China that would be necessary to ensure the receipt of ultra high quality parts the first time, and every time thereafter.

 

[Porter]

Not that surprising - Lotus were fabricating steel chassis (e.g. Esprit, both Elans, etc.) long before extruded aluminium was introduced in the late 1990's for the Elise

Not their area of expertise?
They were fabricating steel chassis at Hethel from 1966 up until the late 90s. And until they moved the operation up the road, F1 chassis too.

Right but most of those people are dead. Globalization killed off skilled heavy manufacturing in most of the UK and US in the 2000s, and the skills themselves mostly evaporated in the workforce along with it.

Are there enough genuinely skilled, experienced 20 to 35 year old welders in the Norfolk area for Lotus to even staff for something like this? Are there even any shipyards or other major fab shops they could tempt employees from?

 

[JimH]

Right but most of those people are dead. Globalization killed off skilled heavy manufacturing in most of the UK and US in the 2000s, and the skills themselves mostly evaporated in the workforce along with it.

Are there enough genuinely skilled, experienced 20 to 35 year old welders in the Norfolk area for Lotus to even staff for something like this? Are there even any shipyards or other major fab shops they could tempt employees from?

Yes. Please end this pointless argument......

Lotus produce record number of sports cars in H1 of 2023

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/10/lotus-produce-record-2200-sports-cars-first-half-2023-eletre-electric-suv https://media.lotuscars.com/en/news-articles/lotus-achieves-record-h1-2023,-surpassing-previous-business-years.html

www.emiraforum.com

 

[KCMO68_510]

He is correct about the airbag recall , I received this form Lotus , and I didn’t take the car ?

Well arguably, I think you mean he was "wrong" about the airbag recall, because his statement was that Lotus wasn't doing anything about it, basically claiming Lotus was being negligent. If they've sent out a recall, they are addressing the issue the same way any other car company would. Recalls don't happen immediately. Takes time to roll everything out.

Honestly, this kind of reinforces my belief that if they are a former employee that they are taking things they overheard and making as outlandish of a statement possible for retribution. They may have heard that airbags were going to be recalled. They then make the statement that airbags are unsafe, Lotus knows, and is doing nothing.

 

[Nova]

Right but most of those people are dead. Globalization killed off skilled heavy manufacturing in most of the UK and US in the 2000s, and the skills themselves mostly evaporated in the workforce along with it.

Are there enough genuinely skilled, experienced 20 to 35 year old welders in the Norfolk area for Lotus to even staff for something like this? Are there even any shipyards or other major fab shops they could tempt employees from?

I think so. They may not be in Norfolk, but I don't doubt there are enough skilled/experienced welders in the UK. Even here in the US, where the government has more or less given the middle finger to all domestic manufacturing in the name of progress, local light industrial fabrication is alive and thriving and welders make good money. What is the rear subframe made out of, cut/stamped/formed galvanized sheet metal pieces riveted/welded together on a jig? That type of fabrication has a fairly low competency threshold - there is no special/exotic tooling or process. Lotus only need to procure galvanized sheet metal of the proper composition and gauge and use the right process for welding and restoring the rust protection at weld points. There is always a healthy need for domestic fabricators and welders in energy, transportation, and construction industries where the projects are typically unique and can't be economically/practically performed remotely. Ironically, a subframe may be something that *can* be sourced remotely, and at "thousands of units", certainly there is the scale to do it.

 

[nelly111s]

We know they are scraping the china parts bin, thats a fact. I wouldnt put it past lotus to take these shortcuts to make their next dealine delay.

That’s a fairly serious accusation. Words like “that’s a fact” - would you like to prove that fact in front of a man in a wig?

I assume you’re not buying a Lotus of any model.

 

[Porter]

What is the rear subframe made out of, cut/stamped/formed galvanized sheet metal pieces riveted/welded together on a jig? That type of fabrication has a fairly low competency threshold - there is no special/exotic tooling or process. Lotus only need to procure galvanized sheet metal of the proper composition and gauge and use the right process for welding and restoring the rust protection at weld points. There is always a healthy need for domestic fabricators and welders in energy, transportation, and construction industries where the projects are typically unique and can't be economically/practically performed remotely.

Right, but you still need a genuinely skilled welder to build something as safety-critical as an automotive subframe. You can't have booger welds and poor penetration on the thing that holds the motor to the car and applies all the motive force to the body. And welding anything galvanized requires very good process control, in addition to the base welding skills.

As an alternative to what you've described, for something like this I'd expect instead for them to weld and prep the entire piece out of non-galvanized high grade steel, then acid dip, then hot dip galvanize the whole piece at once. Otherwise it's never going to be right (and stay right) for a 30+ year lifespan.

Ironically, a subframe may be something that *can* be sourced remotely, and at "thousands of units", certainly there is the scale to do it.

That was entirely my point. It's also backed up a bit contextually by the footage in the Lotus: A New Dawn documentary, when they received the first subframes and none of them had ever seen them before or mounted them to a car. If they were making the subframes in Norwich, they would have brought one or two over on the back of a truck far earlier than that, and there would have been no mystery about whether it would fit, or how it mounts to the car.

Look, maybe they are making them in Norwich. But if so, none of the context clues in what we've seen or heard from Lotus, particularly back in 2021, make any sense. Maybe they were outsourcing early, started receiving awful quality parts (which this original poster on FB is mentioning), and then switched to in-house manufacturing to achieve target quality?

 

[Hethel Merman]

Maybe Betty from the trim dept was having a day on the welder.

 

[dgrace]

As with many threads, you ask a simple question like “has anyone taken a close look at their subframe?” or “weighed the seats” or “measured 0-60” and you get 10 pages of conspiracy theories before anyone actually pulls off the cover to take a photo and say “looks fine” or “looks bad”. This shouldnt be so hard to answer.

 

[CHEESE]

Didn't realize that the V6 has a steel subframe (thought they were all aluminum), so I started googling. Funny enough, came across this link from Lotus North Jersey, which says that "the Lotus Emira... includes a carbon fiber monocoque chassis."

We all know there's not a spec of carbon fiber on the Emira, even though the price says it should.

 

[Nova]

Didn't realize that the V6 has a steel subframe (thought they were all aluminum), so I started googling. Funny enough, came across this link from Lotus North Jersey, which says that "the Lotus Emira... includes a carbon fiber monocoque chassis."

We all know there's not a spec of carbon fiber on the Emira, even though the price says it should.

Yea, you can google "Evora Rear Subframe" to get pictures of approximately what it looks like.

 

[KJD]

Mine looks just fine.

 

[JimH]

Right, but you still need a genuinely skilled welder to build something as safety-critical as an automotive subframe. You can't have booger welds and poor penetration on the thing that holds the motor to the car and applies all the motive force to the body. And welding anything galvanized requires very good process control, in addition to the base welding skills.

As an alternative to what you've described, for something like this I'd expect instead for them to weld and prep the entire piece out of non-galvanized high grade steel, then acid dip, then hot dip galvanize the whole piece at once. Otherwise it's never going to be right (and stay right) for a 30+ year lifespan.


That was entirely my point. It's also backed up a bit contextually by the footage in the Lotus: A New Dawn documentary, when they received the first subframes and none of them had ever seen them before or mounted them to a car. If they were making the subframes in Norwich, they would have brought one or two over on the back of a truck far earlier than that, and there would have been no mystery about whether it would fit, or how it mounts to the car.

Look, maybe they are making them in Norwich. But if so, none of the context clues in what we've seen or heard from Lotus, particularly back in 2021, make any sense. Maybe they were outsourcing early, started receiving awful quality parts (which this original poster on FB is mentioning), and then switched to in-house manufacturing to achieve target quality?

They are making steel subframes in Norwich. They've always made them in Norwich (for Elise, Exige, Evora), even when the Aluminium structures were made in Norway and then Worcester (which was subsequently moved to Norwich and incorporate into a larger factory). Other steel bits (brackets etc.) are also made in Norwich as are fuel tanks. I live in Norwich. There's a massive factory in Norwich here : https://goo.gl/maps/wSYcgbG9wimd4ZfR6 and I've seen it with my own eyes too..... What makes it so hard to comprehend?

The first 60 seconds of this were also shot there (albeit most of this is aluminium work but it shows the level of sophistication….) :

 

[Porter]

They are making steel subframes in Norwich. They've always made them in Norwich (for Elise, Exige, Evora), even when the Aluminium structures were made in Norway and then Worcester (which was subsequently moved to Norwich and incorporate into a larger factory). Other steel bits (brackets etc.) are also made in Norwich as are fuel tanks. I live in Norwich. There's a massive factory in Norwich here : https://goo.gl/maps/wSYcgbG9wimd4ZfR6 and I've seen it with my own eyes too..... What makes it so hard to comprehend?

The first 60 seconds of this were also shot there (albeit most of this is aluminium work) :

I watched the video. I've watched *lots* of videos of Lotus production and manufacturing environments. I didn't see a single steel component being manufactured in your video, and I've never seen it in any other video either, except for vintage footage of the workshops where they built the Elan, Eclat, Elite, etc.

What makes it so hard to comprehend?

I'd ask you a comparable question - why are you so trusting of this company? Because you're local? Where have you been for the last two years? Lotus have lied about an enormous number of things in that time, including production schedules, pricing, material features, all sorts of things. Matt Windle looked directly into a camera and said, "The price you've been quoted is the price you'll pay." He likely knew that was untrue when he said the words. So for any claim they make, no matter how trivial, including something silly like where a particular component is manufactured, I'm at a point where I'd like to directly verify it rather than trusting their word.

Yes, I still want the car. But I'm not under any illusion that the company is being run by credible, competent senior leaders who are deserving of anyone's trust.

 

[Porter]

Mine looks just fine.

These areas (below) need to be looked at closely. That's sheet steel that's been stamped to cut out the holes, and then galvanized. There shouldn't be wrinkled surface there unless there's a weld on the opposite side that's penetrated through. Can you look inside the hole (maybe with a mirror?) to verify that the wrinkling on the surface matches the position of an expected weld?

 

[JimH]

By your own suggestions Norwich is a small place. I have relatives who have worked there and contacts that still do. Ive been “here” since 1989 and have owned 5 other Lotus in that time. Added to ignore list as you’re just being inflammatory now…...

 

[Porter]

The thread, or me personally? Seems extreme, if the latter. I've been here since the beginning of the forum and my contributions here aren't particularly casual or low-quality.

If you've taken anything I've said personally, that seems like an odd choice. This is a commercial business that we're all customers of, and one that has repeatedly engaged in what appear to be strategic lapses of truthfulness. That makes me wary, and if it doesn't make you wary, that's fine. But it's not a case of me being "inflammatory", it's rather a case of you not liking the implication of my questions because you're socially invested in the brand in local, personal ways that most of us are not.