Anyone seeing rust on V6 rear subframe?

[Nova]

These areas (below) need to be looked at closely. That's sheet steel that's been stamped to cut out the holes, and then galvanized. There shouldn't be wrinkled surface there unless there's a weld on the opposite side that's penetrated through. Can you look inside the hole (maybe with a mirror?) to verify that the wrinkling on the surface matches the position of an expected weld?

View attachment 29986

This could be zinc solder applied to spots where the galvanizing may have been compromised due to welding. If they don't brush it flush, then it may look lumpy like this. There are signs of solder being used at the actual weld points since they look smoothed over with a caulked look.

 

[Porter]

This could be zinc solder applied to spots where the galvanizing may have been compromised due to welding. If they don't brush it flush, then it may look lumpy like this. There are signs of solder being used at the actual weld points since they look smoothed over with a caulked look.

Absolutely, I'd expect this in welded areas, or in areas on the back side of a welded junction. I just want to verify that the wrinkled finish isn't in a location that it shouldn't be.

 

[Dr.JDK]

I seriously doubt the validity of this news. The anti-Geely sentiment is ridiculous. Anyone who said Lynk & Co produces cheap and subpar quality cars must live in their imagination. I have driven the lynk 01 extensively and the quality is on par with Volvo. It was 2017. The quality and ownership experience of Lynk & Co only goes up. I don't see connections between a potentially rust rear subframe and the quality of lynk co/Geely/Volvo. If you want to investigate the galvanized steel rear subframe issue, dig deeper into who manufactured it. So far no one pointed out the manufacturer of it yet.

 

[Eagle7]

I'm also wondering if whoever these people are that are reporting these things, might not be some of the recently announced layoffs of 200 that was in the news.

 

[Porter]

I seriously doubt the validity of this news. The anti-Geely sentiment is ridiculous. Anyone who said Lynk & Co produces cheap and subpar quality cars must live in their imagination. I have driven the lynk 01 extensively and the quality is on par with Volvo. It was 2017. The quality and ownership experience of Lynk & Co only goes up. I don't see connections between a potentially rust rear subframe and the quality of lynk co/Geely/Volvo. If you want to investigate the galvanized steel rear subframe issue, dig deeper into who manufactured it. So far no one pointed out the manufacturer of it yet.

I'm sure you're right... but do you mind explaining what you mean by "The quality and ownership experience of Lynk & Co only goes up" when you live in the "Pacific Northwest, USA" and those vehicles are not sold in the US?

 

[NicolasB]

The thread, or me personally? Seems extreme, if the latter. I've been here since the beginning of the forum and my contributions here aren't particularly casual or low-quality.

If you've taken anything I've said personally, that seems like an odd choice. This is a commercial business that we're all customers of, and one that has repeatedly engaged in what appear to be strategic lapses of truthfulness. That makes me wary, and if it doesn't make you wary, that's fine. But it's not a case of me being "inflammatory", it's rather a case of you not liking the implication of my questions because you're socially invested in the brand in local, personal ways that most of us are not.

Welcome to the dark side of Emira forums. Once you hit the tipping point of being a little too critical of the car/manufacturer/design/quality then people treat you differently.

 

[Porter]

Welcome to the dark side of Emira forums. Once you hit the tipping point of being a little too critical of the car/manufacturer/design/quality then people treat you differently.

Haha fair enough. But also you've kicked the hornet's nest a few times quite intentionally, so I get why some folks give you a hard time.

 

[Dr.JDK]

I'm sure you're right... but do you mind explaining what you mean by "The quality and ownership experience of Lynk & Co only goes up" when you live in the "Pacific Northwest, USA" and those vehicles are not sold in the US?

I spend a good amount of time every year pre covid in Shanghai. Flight btw SEA and PVG only take 12 hours.

 

[Porter]

I spend a good amount of time every year pre covid in Shanghai. Flight btw SEA and PVG only take 12 hours.

Gotcha! And you own a Lynk & Co vehicle that you keep in Shanghai?

 

[TomE]

Some of you may remember we’ve had people claiming to be current or former Lotus employees posting similar sorts of claims on here before.

When challenged behind the scenes by moderators, they were either unable to prove their employment status or substantiate the claims they were making. In one case we had to involve Lotus to get to the bottom of it.

I don’t know who the original claim was posted by, but it has some similarities to what we previously saw on here - some parts of the claim plausible but hard to prove and some secondary info linked to a known issue (airbags) that therefore lends some credibility.

It’s fine to debate this topic but a good starting point would be to look for actual evidence of the problem. Which is what the OP was asking.

 

[Porter]

Some of you may remember we’ve had people claiming to be current or former Lotus employees posting similar sorts of claims on here before.

When challenged behind the scenes by moderators, they were either unable to prove their employment status or substantiate the claims they were making. In one case we had to involve Lotus to get to the bottom of it.

I don’t know who the original claim was posted by, but it has some similarities to what we previously saw on here - some parts of the claim plausible but hard to prove and some secondary info linked to a known issue (airbags) that therefore lends some credibility.

It’s fine to debate this topic but a good starting point would be to look for actual evidence of the problem. Which is what the OP was asking.

Thank you Tom! And you nailed it exactly. I'm in a position of being skeptical of all the parties here. I'm skeptical of the supposed former employee who posted on Facebook, and I'm also quite skeptical of Lotus as a manufacturer, considering the shocking range of initial quality and QA problems they've demonstrated.

So that's why I'm asking for any current owners who have the time and inclination at some point over the next few months, to please take a look at their own rear subframes and report if they notice any worrisome corrosion or fit/finish problems.

Thanks all!

 

[Eagle7]

Not that this is specifically on topic, but kinda sorta... I wonder how much the steel rear subframe weighs? I also wonder how much it would cost to replicate it in high strength aluminum, and what kind of weight savings that would provide?

Maybe I should start a weight reduction thread...

 

[Porter]

Not that this is specifically on topic, but kinda sorta... I wonder how much the steel rear subframe weighs? I also wonder how much it would cost to replicate it in high strength aluminum, and what kind of weight savings that would provide?

Maybe I should start a weight reduction thread...

I feel like Lotus would have built it out of aluminum if it was a better solution. Aluminum structures are sort of their specialty, after all. They've used a steel rear subframe for all of the applications for the Toyota V6, haven't they? Including on the Exige V6? There must be a very good reason.

[edit] I looked it up... all the cars since the introduction of the Elise have used a steel rear subframe. Rover K and Toyota variants both. The first modern Lotus to use an aluminum rear subframe is the I4 AMG Emira.

 

[laupd]

Not that this is specifically on topic, but kinda sorta... I wonder how much the steel rear subframe weighs? I also wonder how much it would cost to replicate it in high strength aluminum, and what kind of weight savings that would provide?

Maybe I should start a weight reduction thread...

Are you an engineer ? Really don’t think it’s about weight. Think strength to weight ratio on a high tensile component and you are almost there, then add in a production cost / viability variable and you are cooking

They know what they are doing.

 

[Dr.JDK]

Gotcha! And you own a Lynk & Co vehicle that you keep in Shanghai?

Yes, one of my family members drives a Lynk & Co Lynk 01 and I drive it among other cars when I am in Shanghai. I have a GT4 RS (not a daily) that I drive around tracks and cities near Shanghai.

 

[Eagle7]

Are you an engineer ? Really don’t think it’s about weight. Think strength to weight ratio on a high tensile component and you are almost there, then add in a production cost / viability variable and you are cooking

They know what they are doing.

I think 'cost', pure and simple. Cost, testing, certification. No good business reason for spending the money to develop a new subframe for the V6 for which there isn't a future. Their last ICE car, budget limitations. They went with what they already had for the V6. They went with an aluminum subframe for the i4 because they had to, there wasn't anything they had they could use. Note they chose aluminum for it, not steel. Weight is ALWAYS a thought concern for Lotus.

Yes the engineering, design and development teams know what they are doing, of course, but they also have to get approval for
proposed expenditures. There's always a balance between what they'd like to do, and what they can do within budget limitations. I personally think they did quite a bit to get the Emira to be what it is. The original proposed price points were fantastic. It's just incredibly unfortunate that the world had other things in the pipeline that almost stopped Lotus cold. If it wasn't for Geely's deep pockets, Lotus probably wouldn't have been able to survive. A lot of companies didn't, including much bigger ones.

 

[Nova]

I think 'cost', pure and simple. Cost, testing, certification. No good business reason for spending the money to develop a new subframe for the V6 for which there isn't a future. Their last ICE car, budget limitations. They went with what they already had for the V6. They went with an aluminum subframe for the i4 because they had to, there wasn't anything they had they could use. Note they chose aluminum for it, not steel. Weight is ALWAYS a thought concern for Lotus.

Yes the engineering, design and development teams know what they are doing, of course, but they also have to get approval for
proposed expenditures. There's always a balance between what they'd like to do, and what they can do within budget limitations. I personally think they did quite a bit to get the Emira to be what it is. The original proposed price points were fantastic. It's just incredibly unfortunate that the world had other things in the pipeline that almost stopped Lotus cold. If it wasn't for Geely's deep pockets, Lotus probably wouldn't have been able to survive. A lot of companies didn't, including much bigger ones.

It's possible the steel subframe was originally designed because it's stronger for the given space constraints of the V6, considering the V6's mounting requirements, weight, operating torsion forces and vibrations, etc. The rear subframe is also responsible for carrying all of the suspension bits. The I4 might have mitigated some of these concerns, or it may have been determined that the steel subframe was excessively stout - but they kept it anyway since it's a tried and true design for the V6. The I4 represents the opportunity for a clean-sheet design, and they have the benefit of 10+ year of experience.

Remember, their original plan was to go to market ASAP with the V6. They had more time to prove the I4 design.

 

[Eagle7]

It's possible the steel subframe was originally designed because it's stronger for the given space constraints of the V6, considering the V6's mounting requirements, weight, operating torsion forces and vibrations, etc. The rear subframe is also responsible for carrying all of the suspension bits. The I4 might have mitigated some of these concerns, or it may have been determined that the steel subframe was excessively stout - but they kept it anyway since it's a tried and true design for the V6. The I4 represents the opportunity for a clean-sheet design, and they have the benefit of 10+ year of experience.

Remember, their original plan was to go to market ASAP with the V6. They had more time to prove the I4 design.

When was it originally designed? Metals and metallurgy techniques have come a long way since then. Lotus pre-Geely didn't have billions to throw at designing their cars. I believe they kept it for the reason you mentioned "tried and true design" and put the development budget into the custom double-wishbone suspension, body and interior which both the V6 and i4 would be able to use.

I don't know what the V6 subframe looks like by itself, so I can't make any kind of a guess as to what would be required to replace it with a high-strength aluminum version, but I don't doubt it could be done. Just depends on the cost and what the actual benefit would be as to whether it would be worth doing.

 

[digilotus]

I could be wrong, but wasn't there some coverage of why Lotus had to go with a steel rear subframe for Project Eagle (Evora) in the New Dawn video?

Perhaps there have been some (minor) changes, but I have assumed to date that the Emira and Evora rear V6 subframes are identical. If these galvanized steel subframes rust, I would have expected this issue to have impacted V6 Exiges and Evoras over the past decade as well.

 

[Pegasi]

I could be wrong, but wasn't there some coverage of why Lotus had to go with a steel rear subframe for Project Eagle (Evora) in the New Dawn video?

Perhaps there have been some (minor) changes, but I have assumed to date that the Emira and Evora rear V6 subframes are identical. If these galvanized steel subframes rust, I would have expected this issue to have impacted V6 Exiges and Evoras over the past decade as well.

There is coverage somewhere, I have been trying to find it. It stated why the different subframe for the I4.