Boot hatch frame fills with water

[Porter]

However you want to describe it, the panels are "plastic" or resin, that is reinforced with....wait for it....glass fibre. Hence........fibreglass. It is a different process than the old hand layup method, but it is still basically fibreglass.

GFRP is not "fiberglass". Nobody in the composites industry would ever say that it was, in the sense that you are intending. It's more complex than that. Just because you personally might not be not familiar with the difference, doesn't mean that it isn't significantly different.

A "fiberglass" as used in the automotive industry for 75+ years (and pioneered by Lotus!) is a fundamentally textile or matted material, built up in layers over a rigid form, with a resin material applied that wicks into the fiber mat and then is cured to harden the combined material into a solid. The combined composite material cannot be injection molded because it is never liquid. After curing, the piece changes size and shape slightly and usually must be trimmed and hand-finished to reach its final dimensional form and detail, particularly at the edges. It is a porous, heterogenous composite material with reasonably high tensile strength but a low degree of consistency in strength and behaviors - typically fiberglass panels are somewhat brittle and do not handle impacts well unless reinforced or built to be very thick.

A GFRP (or AFRP, or CFRP) is a fundamentally plastic material that can be injection-molded in liquid form, and has a very specific ratio of suspended free fiber mixed into the plastic in a way that keeps the fibers evenly suspended throughout the mix. It is a non-porous, homogenous composite material with a high degree of consistency in strength and behaviors. Panels made from this material are typically both strong and "tough"... meaning non-brittle. They usually handle impacts and temperature changes very well. They are NOT a fiberglass in the sense intended by most in the automotive industry.


FYI in the construction industry these terms are mixed more closely. That's a thing within that industry's colloquial understanding of the terms. Different context.

 

[Carbuilder]

GFRP is not fiberglass. Nobody in the composites industry would ever say that it was. Just because you're personally not familiar with the difference, doesn't mean that it isn't dramatically, completely different.

A "fiberglass" is a fundamentally textile or matted material, built up in layers over a rigid form, with a resin material applied that wicks into the fiber mat and then is cured to harden the combined material into a solid.

No need to get insulting just because you are wrong. What you are describing is one form of fibreglass; it can take many forms. I'm being "popular" in my usage.

Other common names for fiberglass are glass-reinforced plastic (GRP),[1] glass-fiber reinforced plastic (GFRP)[2] or GFK (from German: Glasfaserverstärkter Kunststoff). Because glass fiber itself is sometimes referred to as "fiberglass", the composite is also called fiberglass-reinforced plastic (FRP).

"the resulting composite material, properly known as fibre-reinforced polymer (FRP) or glass-reinforced plastic (GRP), is called "fibreglass" in popular usage."

 

[Porter]

In my opinion, if you refer to GFRP, AFRP, and CFRP materials as "fiberglass", then you are essentially saying that the carbon CFRP chassis in modern cars like the Alfa 4C, McLaren, etc are the same thing as a fiberglass fishing boat hull from the 1970s.

These two things are not the same:

 

[Porter]

No need to get insulting just because you are wrong. What you are describing is one form of fibreglass; it can take many forms. I'm being "popular" in my usage.

Other common names for fiberglass are glass-reinforced plastic (GRP),[1] glass-fiber reinforced plastic (GFRP)[2] or GFK (from German: Glasfaserverstärkter Kunststoff). Because glass fiber itself is sometimes referred to as "fiberglass", the composite is also called fiberglass-reinforced plastic (FRP).

"the resulting composite material, properly known as fibre-reinforced polymer (FRP) or glass-reinforced plastic (GRP), is called "fibreglass" in popular usage."

You took that from a building materials site. Different usage of the terms. They are talking about rebar products.

In the construction industry, the terms "fiber" and "fiberglass" are used to distinguish fiber-reinforced plastic rebar products from traditional steel ones. "GFP" and "GFRP" aren't terms that roll off the tongue on a job site, so they use shorthand. They're referring to injection-molded plastic products with fiber mix to reinforce. Some of them don't even have glass fiber, but they're still called that way colloquially because the distinction is about steel rebar vs. other, not any attempt to be accurate about the content of the material itself. There's no such thing as traditional fiber mat rebar products in that industry - they started with the plastics when the technology made it possible.

 

[FederGigant]

You took that from a building materials site. Different usage of the terms. They are talking about rebar products.

Just a troll I guess… only because their are some glass fibers in the material doesn’t make it fiber glass. Would anybody consider calling reinforced concrete „iron“, just because there is .3% of rebar in it?

 

[Carbuilder]

You took that from a building materials site. Different usage of the terms. They are talking about rebar products.

In my opinion, if you refer to GFRP, AFRP, and CFRP materials as "fiberglass", then you are essentially saying...

Well, my 2nd quote came from a university engineering site. I'll take that over an opinion.

Enough. You are splitting hairs to try and make a point.

Admin, please feel free to delete all this back-and-forth....mine included.

 

[Grumpy]

1. I've seen drain holes drilled in a LOT of production cars. Just because you aren't personally familiar with the practice doesn't mean it isn't common or reasonable. Water inside a void? Get it out. Drain hole is the least invasive way to do that. Many cars have drain holes punched into frame and structural panels by design. But just because it's done in the factory doesn't mean it isn't any less arbitrary. A hole is a hole.

2. There's no glass fibre involved. As far as I'm aware there is no fibreglass used anywhere in this car, and no porous materials other than the upholstery.

Err, you do know this is a Lotus? Every body panel is GRP on top of an aluminium glued tub and galvanised steel subframe to carry engine transmission, just like every lotus for the past 26 years. Maybe watch Harrys Garage video on YouTube of his factory visit

 

[VL3X]

Err, you do know this is a Lotus? Every body panel is GRP on top of an aluminium glued tub and galvanised steel subframe to carry engine transmission, just like every lotus for the past 26 years. Maybe watch Harrys Garage video on YouTube of his factory visit

Except the i4 Emira will have an aluminum rear subframe.

 

[Grumpy]

Officially it's "composite" but that's mostly thermoplastic, I believe. I don't know what the mix is, but likely some sort of CFRP, AFRP, or GFRP.

None of those are "fiberglass" in the way that's understood by the public (wicking glass fiber plus resin). They are engineered composite plastics with some content mix of ultra-rigid microscopic material in suspension, to strengthen them. The fibers serve the same purpose within the plastic that rebar serves within concrete.

It’s resin Infused GRP. When I asked at the factory there was no suggestion of Carbon or Kevlar being used.

 

[Porter]

Err, you do know this is a Lotus? Every body panel is GRP on top of an aluminium glued tub and galvanised steel subframe to carry engine transmission, just like every lotus for the past 26 years. Maybe watch Harrys Garage video on YouTube of his factory visit

In the past Lotus has not used GRP, they used hand-lay fiberglass matting in panel forms with resin literally poured on it and then oven cured. It was a traditional fiberglass layup process with hand finishing.

GRP is a plastics process, and typically uses injection molding or another type of high precision molding. That's not anything that Lotus has done in-house (or on any car before the Emira), to my knowledge.

 

[Porter]

Just to be clear folks, we're talking about panels like this:

In my opinion, that's a plastic panel. "Composite" because it has a small amount of fiber in the plastic mix, but fundamentally, holding it in your hand, it's a plastic part.


This is fiberglass:

These two things are not the same.

 

[Carbuilder]

In my opinion, that's a plastic panel. "Composite" because it has a small amount of fiber in the plastic mix, but fundamentally, holding it in your hand, it's a plastic part.

Thank you for clarifying that it is your opinion, not fact. I appreciate that.

 

[ADC]

I'm going to ask somebody to drill a drainage hole in my head if this keeps going. The panels are a thermoplastic, they have glass fibres in them, there is a technical name for it, along with several colloquial ways to refer to it, the hatch frame currently fills with water, and drilling a hole lets the water out while we wait for a process improvement to make it Not My Problem. SMH.

 

[lion shf]

I'm going to ask somebody to drill a drainage hole in my head if this keeps going. The panels are a thermoplastic, they have glass fibres in them, there is a technical name for it, along with several colloquial ways to refer to it, the hatch frame currently fills with water, and drilling a hole lets the water out while we wait for a process improvement to make it Not My Problem. SMH.

But $100k tho

 

[Mctaff]

Am I buying an 80k plastic car that leaks? Wtf am I thinking??!

 

[lion shf]

Am I buying an 80k plastic car that leaks? Wtf am I thinking??!

When you consider this would be my only car, the leaks are heartbreaking news

 

[Porter]

When you consider this would be my only car, the leaks are heartbreaking news

Where are you getting "leaks" plural from? So far we have one report of an owner with some water collection inside the frame rail of the rear hatch lid. Lotus is replacing the part and have produced an interim solution for the individual car (a hole) to drain the water from the void space.

This is unrelated to the accumulation of water that can happen in the middle "scoop" area of the rear decklid when it rains, that's a reasonable side effect of the decklid shape (for aero), not a defect.

 

[lion shf]

Where are you getting "leaks" plural from? So far we have one report of an owner with some water collection inside the frame rail of the rear hatch lid. Lotus is replacing the part and have produced an interim solution for the individual car (a hole) to drain the water from the void space.

This is unrelated to the accumulation of water that can happen in the middle "scoop" area of the rear decklid when it rains, that's a reasonable side effect of the decklid shape (for aero), not a defect.

Quick question is the Emira one of several cars you’ll own?

 

[ADC]

But $100k tho

Not justifying anything, just speaking to all the back and forth about "fibreglass"

 

[lion shf]

Not justifying anything, just speaking to all the back and forth about "fibreglass"

Yeah I know