Emiras advertised for sale on other sites

[emiraspain]

You mean they are managing to deliver less than 1 per day to the uk??!!

I thought they were getting close to 200 out by Xmas or something??!

Another fairy tale?

All I can say is that I was told I would be in the 1st 60 and that was for November build December hand over... there should be about 100 by the end of the year then about 300 by the end of January if I remember correctly what I was told. I put it on another buried post somewhere ages ago.
I dont necessarily think they are even handing over 1 car a day with all the issues they seem to be finding/having.... 3 weeks now for my car.....since it has been produced.
Maybe they want to give it to me with icing on the top.... sorry, I mean ice underneath it on the ROAD

 

[TomE]

Side note - anyone know what Lotus is quoting for a delivery time for an Emira if placing a deposit today in the UK?

I think they’re still quoting 65 weeks. It’s been 65 since June, even though the delays and slower ramp up were actually pushing it to 80-85 weeks. Cancellations will reduce that, but the recent delays for some UK people from 2023 into 2024 will have extended it again.

 

[TomE]

I do wonder at toms radio silence since his first back2backathon

I said I’d wait until after Part 2 on 16 Dec before publishing.

As a headline, I’ve already said it’s a great car let down by poor customer care and as-yet unresolved questions about quality and aftersales support.

 

[Jon_N]

There’s a lot of nearly new / delivery mileage dealers which have sprung up in the U.K. in the last few years based on supply shortages & demand for high end vehicles. Lots of these will have deposits in for Emira… why wouldn’t they, it’s a small bet to hedge… I think we’ll see a lot of supply coming to market.
Having said that, overs on most non-limited cars is disappearing… I was offered a new Audi RSQ8 for £8k under list last week, that spec was previously fetching £20k overs.

 

[emiraspain]

There’s a lot of nearly new / delivery mileage dealers which have sprung up in the U.K. in the last few years based on supply shortages & demand for high end vehicles. Lots of these will have deposits in for Emira… why wouldn’t they, it’s a small bet to hedge… I think we’ll see a lot of supply coming to market.
Having said that, overs on most non-limited cars is disappearing… I was offered a new Audi RSQ8 for £8k under list last week, that spec was previously fetching £20k overs.

maybe, yes, but not getting at you, instead talking about the EMIRA specifically, as others have said, there are about 50 cars out there in the UK now..and for actual sale, physically, how many cars? We cant include cars that are not in customers hands as by the time they arrive, it wont be 50 cars out there it will possibly be about 2/300 so the % changes.

There are/have been about 3 physical cars for sale. I believe certainly 2 of them were not intended to resell, and hence were not bought by flippers... so its potentially 1 in 50 and we dont know the details of that person to define them in this way either. But if we say yes, 1 in 50 is what, 2%.
Others on here have said HUGE numbers of flippers have ordered these cars, mentioning no names, but it would appear so far, and we should look at the EU also, that this is simply not the case, the numbers do NOT stack up.
Yes a few will have, of course, but as others have said, those that flip cars know exactly where they are with a GT3/4/spyder etc, but with a Lotus, whom have never produced what we could say is a true high quality product...something you know is good through and through.... they would in general steer clear, I know I would if a pure flip was my original intention. Just as its good looking, doesn't mean it has quality parts or that it has high quality, well paid people making the car or high quality people controlling the "quality", which so far seems to be closer to Lotus historicals than I would like, although they seem keen to (are forced to) try to remedy these things. After all we are not in the 1970/80/s anymore, you cant get away with this crap these days with social media, your reputation is in shreds in days if you dont correct things!
Lets see in 4 months where things stand, but we still wont know who sold for what reason! If the car is not a world beater, and this is really what so many people on here expect, some kind of miracle car with 700hp, redlining at 10,000 revs and imperious quality, and all that for 60k. Instead what they get is a "better" quality, much better looking, less exciting, slower in a straight or bendy line (where wide track doesn't really matter around none tight bends) Lotus Evora.
All this is why many now think of other 2nd hand purchases. I include myself here, but at the same time it is totally unrealistically to compare a McLaren / AM vantage/ 992 to an Emira, it was never meant to be a competitor. The poor 60k base car, 15 year old toyota engine and box to go head to head with these super cars, come on! What do people expect.... ? I wouldnt expect, back in the day, a brand new Triumph TR7 to go head to head with a 3 year ferrari costing 3 times as much when new. A car for the masses, cheap, mass produced, with low cost and debatable quality/latest tech parts in general, I think we know what the reviewers will say and have already said..... impossible. Take it for what its worth, a great looking ...relatively fun car for 60+ k... end of. If you want a super car, go buy one.... what to do....

 

[Emira]

Isn't this the Collecting Cars yellow one?

Used Lotus cars for sale. Lotus Dealer Macclesfield | Scott Hardy Ltd

Welcome to Scott Hardy Ltd, the best place to start your search for a used Lotus car for sale in Macclesfield. View our stock online.

www.scott-hardy.co.uk

I don't understand how on earth they think they'll get £105k when clearly all the market is willing to pay is £90k ish? What benefit is there buying a brand new car from a dealer vs an auction site other than potentially the dealer offering finance?

 

[Jon_N]

maybe, yes, but not getting at you, but instead talking about the EMIRA specifically, as others have said, there are about 50 cars out there in the UK now..and for actual sale, physically, how many cars? We cant include cars that are not in customers hands as by the time they arrive, it wont be 50 cars out there it will possibly be about 2/300 so the % changes.

There are/have been about 3 physical cars for sale. I believe certainly 2 of them were not intended to resell, and hence were not bought by flippers... so its potentially 1 in 50 and we dont know the details of that person to define them in this way either. But if we say yes, 1 in 50 is what, 2%.
Others on here have said HUGE numbers of flippers have ordered these cars, mentioning no names, but it would appear so far, and we should look at the EU also, that this is simply not the case, the numbers do NOT stack up.
Yes a few will have, of course, but as others have said, those that flip cars know exactly where they are with a GT3/4/spyder etc, but with a Lotus, whom have never produced what we could say is a true quality product... ever.... they would in general steer clear, I know I would if a pure flip was my original intention. Just as its good looking, doesn't mean it has quality parts or that it has quality people making the car or quality people controlling the "quality", which so far seems to be close to Lotus historicals, although they seem keen to (are forced to) try to remedy these things. After all we are not in the 1970/80/s anymore, you cant get away with this crap these days with social media your reputation is in shreds in days if you dont correct things!
Lets see in 4 months where things stand, but we still wont know who sold for what reason! If the car is not a world beater, and this is really what so many people on here expect, some kind of miracle car with 700hp, redlining at 10,000 revs and imperious quality, and all that for 60k. Instead what they get is a "better" quality, much better looking, less exciting, slower in a straight or bendy line (where wide track doesnt really matter around none tight bends) Lotus Evora.
All this is why many on here now think of other 2nd hand purchases. I include myseld here, but at the same time it is totally unrealistically to compare a McLaren / AM vantage/ 992 to an Emira, it was never meant to be a competitor. The poor 60k base car, 15 year old toyota engine and box to go head to head with these super cars, come on! What do people expect.... ? I wouldnt expect, back in the day, a brand new Triumph TR7 to go head to head with a 3 year ferrari costing 3 times as much. A car for the masses, cheap and mass produced, with low cost and low quality parts in general, I think we know what the reviewers will say and have already said..... impossible. Take it for what its worth, a great looking ...relatively fun car for 60+ k... end of. If you want a super car, go buy one....

All fair points…. I’d certainly never compare the Emira with limited production super cars where demand is still really high.
My point is, in the medium term, I think you’ll see a lot of cars available in the nearly new market unless it’s clear there’s zero profit, in which case Lotus will see cancellations & orders will move up the line. Then once more actual punters have cars, the used supply increases & prices will drop in line with typical sports cars.
I agree with your last point, at £60k it’s a good value fun car, at £90k, it’s all the money & of depreciation is weak it’s not a great buy in my book.

 

[TomE]

Isn't this the Collecting Cars yellow one?

Used Lotus cars for sale. Lotus Dealer Macclesfield | Scott Hardy Ltd

Welcome to Scott Hardy Ltd, the best place to start your search for a used Lotus car for sale in Macclesfield. View our stock online.

www.scott-hardy.co.uk

I don't understand how on earth they think they'll get £105k when clearly all the market is willing to pay is £90k ish? What benefit is there buying a brand new car from a dealer vs an auction site other than potentially the dealer offering finance?

Yes that’s the CC car. Several being offered around £105k and not selling.

Whether you buy privately, at auction or from a dealer you’ll get the Lotus warranty and can sort finance yourself. A non-Lotus dealer is unlikely to have a better finance deal than what you can find shopping around.

 

[TomE]

maybe, yes, but not getting at you, but instead talking about the EMIRA specifically, as others have said, there are about 50 cars out there in the UK now..and for actual sale, physically, how many cars? We cant include cars that are not in customers hands as by the time they arrive, it wont be 50 cars out there it will possibly be about 2/300 so the % changes.

There are/have been about 3 physical cars for sale. I believe certainly 2 of them were not intended to resell, and hence were not bought by flippers... so its potentially 1 in 50 and we dont know the details of that person to define them in this way either. But if we say yes, 1 in 50 is what, 2%.
Others on here have said HUGE numbers of flippers have ordered these cars, mentioning no names, but it would appear so far, and we should look at the EU also, that this is simply not the case, the numbers do NOT stack up.
Yes a few will have, of course, but as others have said, those that flip cars know exactly where they are with a GT3/4/spyder etc, but with a Lotus, whom have never produced what we could say is a true quality product... ever.... they would in general steer clear, I know I would if a pure flip was my original intention. Just as its good looking, doesn't mean it has quality parts or that it has quality people making the car or quality people controlling the "quality", which so far seems to be close to Lotus historicals, although they seem keen to (are forced to) try to remedy these things. After all we are not in the 1970/80/s anymore, you cant get away with this crap these days with social media your reputation is in shreds in days if you dont correct things!
Lets see in 4 months where things stand, but we still wont know who sold for what reason! If the car is not a world beater, and this is really what so many people on here expect, some kind of miracle car with 700hp, redlining at 10,000 revs and imperious quality, and all that for 60k. Instead what they get is a "better" quality, much better looking, less exciting, slower in a straight or bendy line (where wide track doesnt really matter around none tight bends) Lotus Evora.
All this is why many on here now think of other 2nd hand purchases. I include myseld here, but at the same time it is totally unrealistically to compare a McLaren / AM vantage/ 992 to an Emira, it was never meant to be a competitor. The poor 60k base car, 15 year old toyota engine and box to go head to head with these super cars, come on! What do people expect.... ? I wouldnt expect, back in the day, a brand new Triumph TR7 to go head to head with a 3 year ferrari costing 3 times as much. A car for the masses, cheap and mass produced, with low cost and low quality parts in general, I think we know what the reviewers will say and have already said..... impossible. Take it for what its worth, a great looking ...relatively fun car for 60+ k... end of. If you want a super car, go buy one....

You seem determined to keep saying (and in other posts) the Emira is poor quality. The same argument you’re using about overs - limited number of cars and small sample size - also applies to quality. Plus there’s the internet effect, with problems published online and endlessly debated but happy owners are out driving and often not posting (although we have a few on here).

Given the massive investment, cars held back and the apparent efforts of Lotus to deal promptly with early teething issues, why don’t we wait into Q1 and more deliveries before writing off the Emira as a low quality car?

The Emira isn’t trying to be better than a McLaren. Even being considered by some people as a viable alternative to Porsche is a step forward for Lotus.

 

[emiraspain]

You seem determined to keep saying (and in other posts) the Emira is poor quality. The same argument you’re using about overs - limited number of cars and small sample size - also applies to quality. Plus there’s the internet effect, with problems published online and endlessly debated but happy owners are out driving and often not posting (although we have a few on here).

Given the massive investment, cars held back and the apparent efforts of Lotus to deal promptly with early teething issues, why don’t we wait into Q1 and more deliveries before writing off the Emira as a low quality car?

The Emira isn’t trying to be better than a McLaren. Even being considered by some people as a viable alternative to Porsche is a step forward for Lotus.

I accept your point, but at the same time, you yourself have highlighted the initial problems as having an effect on your thoughts as to whether to complete your purchase or not, so clearly I am not alone in my opinions and doubts about quality. And just like with Englands exit from the world cup, there are never a lack of excuses and hopes for the future, but at the moment, we have to deal with the current reality and each person can decide whether its good enough or not and if each step forward is large enough or not.
Ive sat in it for a few hours and Ive spoken to those who work for a company supplying some of the parts for it, and repeat their opinions within my own. I do also believe some of the things we have been told by a "lotus employee" as they seem to make correlate with real life experiences too. Here my repetition is to highlight that flippers know their cars and know Lotus and know Porsche, and apart from some sheep's clothing, there is a still a huge gap between them and this must be expected with the respective budgets in mind. Gone are the days when good old Ken Tyrell can make a F1 car good enough to be a world beater in his garden shed.... it just wouldnt work now, unfortunately.

While I dont think the car overall is poor quality, and I still consider keeping it, s most should do, despite my negativity or reality, it certainly does have what I would deem to be some quite poor quality parts within it and although I accept I am not in the factory to see for myself, I do get a very strong impression that the build quality and QC more importantly are not quality and all of this has an effect on the overall quality perception of the car and thats a lot of repetition of the word quality!

I hope, as you do, that Q1 2023 changes all of this...... But, comparing it to its direct opposition as it stands, it is IMO not a higher or even similar car in terms of build quality (up until now) or in terms of component parts, which wont change in Q1/2 or 3/4. The Info ent. system alone is way behind where it should be for 2022/3 and is only close to being on par with a 718 as the same 718 system is 9 years old. Again, it looks ok from a distance, but the screen lacks definition and luminosity and not being able to get the main speed into Km/h is a terrible oversight that others just would not make. Even my westfield could do this with its AIM system installed, similar to the final edition Lotus's.

The Emira is a stepping stone for Lotus, nothing more. Its not a huge leap, but a step in the right direction and the next cars will hopefully be a good size leap. However, if they are to be made at Hethel, I for one think there will be a huge shake up if they dont get things right very quickly.

 

[emiraspain]

All fair points…. I’d certainly never compare the Emira with limited production super cars where demand is still really high.
My point is, in the medium term, I think you’ll see a lot of cars available in the nearly new market unless it’s clear there’s zero profit, in which case Lotus will see cancellations & orders will move up the line. Then once more actual punters have cars, the used supply increases & prices will drop in line with typical sports cars.
I agree with your last point, at £60k it’s a good value fun car, at £90k, it’s all the money & of depreciation is weak it’s not a great buy in my book.

I in turn agree with all you say and I am very worried for Lotus, more than for myself, about these mid term values.
We can argue here between all of us what makes a quality car, a good sports car, a good image car, etc etc, BUT if a certain car's residuals are not good, the general impression within the public is a negative one and that effects sales! Alfa's are a great example, the motoring press tend to love them, but residuals are awful and in the UK at least, their overall reputation is bad... these days maybe not deserved, but people dont want to buy a car that depreciates rapidly....
At the same time, I know Lotus is trying to solve the quality issues, Im just not sure they will be able to do it in time....... lets hope so as its not long until the mid term arrives ...

 

[Jon_N]

I in turn agree with all you say and I am very worried for Lotus, more than for myself, about these mid term values.
We can argue here between all of us what makes a quality car, a good sports car, a good image car, etc etc, BUT if a certain car's residuals are not good, the general impression within the public is a negative one and that effects sales! Alfa's are a great example, the motoring press tend to love them, but residuals are awful and in the UK at least, their overall reputation is bad... these days maybe not deserved, but people dont want to buy a car that depreciates rapidly....
At the same time, I know Lotus is trying to solve the quality issues, Im just not sure they will be able to do it in time....... lets hope so as its not long until the mid term arrives ...

Alfa is a great analogy

 

[Tonyshepp]

The brief for the Emira was a car that attracted people who normally buy Porsches, BMW's and the like to Lotus - I'm one of them. To attract them the car needs to be good, in the main it is but also expect quality to be as good as it can be, ease of servicing and ease to mange problems when they are found on my car.
I don't get that warm fuzzy feeling that Lotus, not yet, are a mature car manufacturer for my business as sexy as the car look.
There will be people with money dripping out of their pockets who buy these as a third, or fourth car but it was designed as a daily and as a daily i need other things to be easy, servicing and managing warranty issues for a start - possibly the same thought process Tom has.

 

[Jon_N]

The brief for the Emira was a car that attracted people who normally buy Porsches, BMW's and the like to Lotus - I'm one of them. To attract them the car needs to be good, in the main it is but also expect quality to be as good as it can be, ease of servicing and ease to mange problems when they are found on my car.
I don't get that warm fuzzy feeling that Lotus, not yet, are a mature car manufacturer for my business as sexy as the car look.
There will be people with money dripping out of their pockets who buy these as a third, or fourth car but it was designed as a daily and as a daily i need other things to be easy, servicing and managing warranty issues for a start - possibly the same thought process Tom has.

Great post!

 

[Mctaff]

Another one…

DV 93k

Not a physical car

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

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www.autotrader.co.uk

 

[Tonyshepp]

Another one…

DV 93k

Not a physical car

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

Another speculative "if i get interest ill buy the car and sell on, if i don't i wont buy the car" Emira owner. There will be more when the January deliveries get their Checkout email and before commit to purchase.

 

[Jon_N]

Another speculative "if i get interest ill buy the car and sell on, if i don't i wont buy the car" Emira owner. There will be more when the January deliveries get their Checkout email and before commit to purchase.

What's the final OTR price for FE? Doesn't feel like a huge mark-up? Won't be long before you can get a pre-registered car at list, especially if it ticks into New Year & car has been registered in 2022

 

[Mctaff]

A little below or above 80k depending on options - black pack, tracker etc….

 

[Lotustoronto]

I still think a fair amount of early Emira depositors were flippers/dealers. The phenomenon COVID car shortage was just too great a moment for them not to put deposits down looking for a quick profit.

I'll say it again, the reason the Emira isn't attracting huge overs is more down to timing/economy than the car itself. No one should expect any new vehicle to be above market rate these days. (apart from limited edition/GT cars from a handful of manufacturers... predominantly Porsche and Ferrari) Emira is an unknown quantity and if Lotus started shipping cars a year ago, yes the overs would be far larger, but that has to do with economy and supply, not the Emira. We can say the quality of the car isn't up to par, but in all honesty I have not seen nor heard anything detrimental to the QC. Niggles here and there, of course, and expected in the first few hundred produced.

Remember, Porsche GT cars and Ferrari get overs primarily because they limit production and in some cases only produce the cars for VIP clients. So if you want one, you gotta pay. It is very tightly controlled. Lotus will sell to as many depositors as possible. Only being held back by production. This is the difference. I think Lotus could have done a better job in many areas, primarily CS. Also running the F/E range far too long in the UK was silly and delaying the base spec/configurator is only going to alienate those customers as well. Constant pushing out production and lack of comms developed a lack of trust with the actual enthusiast buyer. We see that in the cancellation thread. Most people that cancelled were not flippers (at least I think they weren't), they were disappointed from CS, some the Emira itself, but mostly the lack of faith in Lotus to deliver on their promises. Porsche customers generally don't have CS/lack of trust in the brand. What we are seeing is the mixture of flippers/dealers looking for a profit and enthusiast's lacking of trust in the Lotus brand to deliver a well built car, that comes with the service expected from spending that sort of money. If it had a Ferrari badge, same infotainment, same seats, same KEF, same power, same yearly production of 5k, (ok not a Toyota engine lol) for 150K, the new Ferrari Dino idea - they would be sold out for 5+ years in one day. And not a single person would complain. Deal of the Century.

So far I have not heard to much negativity from aftercare or service/major faults, but there is some. If this does not improve, or worsens, I myself will be out. Lotus needs to understand how important getting this right is for the brand. My guess is Geely will be stepping in soon, with regards to warranty/aftercare/CS etc. I am betting that they are not willing to gamble billions on something that has been called a kit car brand in the past, just to let it deteriorate further. They are heading in the right direction, and I can understand growing pains, but they best be fixing the problems as they arise. Customers will only handle so much dissatisfaction before they walk away and share their thoughts all over social media.

 

[Jon_N]

I still think a fair amount of early Emira depositors were flippers/dealers. The phenomenon COVID car shortage was just too great a moment for them not to put deposits down looking for a quick profit.

I'll say it again, the reason the Emira isn't attracting huge overs is more down to timing/economy than the car itself. No one should expect any new vehicle to be above market rate these days. (apart from limited edition/GT cars from a handful of manufacturers... predominantly Porsche and Ferrari) Emira is an unknown quantity and if Lotus started shipping cars a year ago, yes the overs would be far larger, but that has to do with economy and supply, not the Emira. We can say the quality of the car isn't up to par, but in all honesty I have not seen nor heard anything detrimental to the QC. Niggles here and there, of course, and expected in the first few hundred produced.

Remember, Porsche GT cars and Ferrari get overs primarily because they limit production and in some cases only produce the cars for VIP clients. So if you want one, you gotta pay. It is very tightly controlled. Lotus will sell to as many depositors as possible. Only being held back by production. This is the difference. I think Lotus could have done a better job in many areas, primarily CS. Also running the F/E range far too long in the UK was silly and delaying the base spec/configurator is only going to alienate those customers as well. Constant pushing out production and lack of comms developed a lack of trust with the actual enthusiast buyer. We see that in the cancellation thread. Most people that cancelled were not flippers (at least I think they weren't), they were disappointed from CS, some the Emira itself, but mostly the lack of faith in Lotus to deliver on their promises. Porsche customers generally don't have CS/lack of trust in the brand. What we are seeing is the mixture of flippers/dealers looking for a profit and enthusiast's lacking of trust in the Lotus brand to deliver a well built car, that comes with the service expected from spending that sort of money. If it had a Ferrari badge, same infotainment, same seats, same KEF, same power, same yearly production of 5k, (ok not a Toyota engine lol) for 150K, the new Ferrari Dino idea - they would be sold out for 5+ years in one day. And not a single person would complain. Deal of the Century.

So far I have not heard to much negativity from aftercare or service/major faults, but there is some. If this does not improve, or worsens, I myself will be out. Lotus needs to understand how important getting this right is for the brand. My guess is Geely will be stepping in soon, with regards to warranty/aftercare/CS etc. I am betting that they are not willing to gamble billions on what on something that has been called a kit car brand in the past, just to let it deteriorate further. They are heading in the right direction, and I can understand growing pains, but they best be fixing the problems as they arise. Customers will only handle so much dissatisfaction before they walk away and share their thoughts all over social media.

Agree with a lot of this..... but not the Ferrari comparison. Agree tech & some internal features (audio for one) of a Ferrari can be questionable.... what is not questionable is the ride & power train.... you drive a Ferrari, it comes alive & puts down power like no other car. I keep hearing the engine feels underpowered in the Lotus, you'd NEVER hear that in a Ferrari, but if your point is simply "brands sell", then I agree completely, but Lotus needs to rebuild its brand before it can be classed as a luxury brand (if that's even it's goal!)