Is This For Real? BMW Charging to use heated seats?

[kratedisease]

I disagree… you haven’t already paid for the hardware. BMW have, and they are recovering their costs via a monthly payment rather than you paying for an option upfront

I am trying not to debate or even to CONVINCE you..... you are welcome to support this stupidity........but who owns the seat in your car ? can you take out the seat and sell it on ebay ? or does BMW mark your title and have a lien on the seat heater mechanism ? NO NEED TO REPLY. I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A REPLY.

no need to respond. I do not want to debate. please do not reply.

please ignore my post, and send you "rent" payment to BMW.

please ignore my post and defend BMW.

BMW LOVES YOU

 

[Leonard]

let me guess.... you are 45yrs or younger..... and you own Bitcoin ?

This is the only way I can comprehend you defending this rental of features.

Nope sorry, wrong both counts.
I guess you will be trading in your Emira FE in 2 years for the 'new' Emira GT with ecu reflash and paying 10k for the privilege?

 

[kratedisease]

BTW, I have a house for sale in London, and after you pay for the house, I just want to make it clear that even though you have the title in your name and you own the house outright, I wrote in the closing deed document a clause that if you want to open the windows for fresh air, even though you own the windows, I put a special radio controlled mechanical lock on the windows, and you have to pay me rent for me to send the signal for me to release the window lock.
( Just so you know, you actually own the radio controlled lock mechanism and you paid for it when you bough the house, BUT I retained the ability to rent out its function.....wrote that in the closing sale documents......in fine print..... your lawyer forgot to mention that to you)

You own the house, you own the windows, you paid for it at the closing sale, But I retain the ability to control the radio controlled electronic window locks. I don't own the radio controlled window locks, you do, BUT I wrote in the deed that I retain the ability to rent out their function.

If this become profitable, I may do this with the kitchen appliances in any future homes that i may sell going forward. GENIUS. I love to make money for nothing.


I love BMW. Thank you BMW for this great Idea......

 

[Mctaff]

BMW ConnectedDrive | BMW UK

Connect your BMW to the rest of the world with BMW ConnectedDrive services. Discover all digital services in the BMW ConnectedDrive Store.

www.bmw.co.uk

high beam headlights too!!!

 

[Leonard]

BTW, I have a house for sale in London, and after you pay for the house, I just want to make it clear that even though you have the title in your name and you own the house outright, I wrote in the closing deed document a clause that if you want to open the windows for fresh air, even though you own the windows, I put a special radio controlled mechanical lock on the windows, and you have to pay me rent for me to send the signal for me to release the window lock.
( Just so you know, you actually own the radio controlled lock mechanism and you paid for it when you bough the house, BUT I retained the ability to rent out its function.....wrote that in the closing sale documents......in fine print..... your lawyer forgot to mention that to you)

You own the house, you own the windows, you paid for it at the closing sale, But I retain the ability to control the radio controlled electronic window locks. I don't own the radio controlled window locks, you do, BUT I wrote in the deed that I retain the ability to rent out their function.

If this become profitable, I may do this with the kitchen appliances in any future homes that i may sell going forward. GENIUS. I love to make money for nothing.


I love BMW. Thank you BMW for this great Idea......

House analogy works for smart homes.
You buy the house and then you decide on whether to keep your alarm subscription, cleaning and laundry service, 24 hour camera monitoring and cloud based recording, Internet subscription, your multiple TV entertainment packages, music subscription, the gym equipment on subscription, the underground parking that you share, concierge service, gardener and maintenance, nanny and mistress etc etc
It makes sense, you pick and choose what you want. I will take the underground parking all year around, the gym for 6 months over winter and the mistress every other month (after a year I will have the upgrade model)

 

[Mctaff]

I am trying not to debate or even to CONVINCE you..... you are welcome to support this stupidity........but who owns the seat in your car ? can you take out the seat and sell it on ebay ? or does BMW mark your title and have a lien on the seat heater mechanism ? NO NEED TO REPLY. I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A REPLY.

no need to respond. I do not want to debate. please do not reply.

please ignore my post, and send you "rent" payment to BMW.

please ignore my post and defend BMW.

BMW LOVES YOU

Do you always get so agitated by people who have different views? It must be tiring…

 

[kratedisease]

House analogy works for smart homes.
You buy the house and then you decide on whether to keep your alarm subscription, cleaning and laundry service, 24 hour camera monitoring and cloud based recording, Internet subscription, your multiple TV entertainment packages, music subscription, the gym equipment on subscription, the underground parking that you share, concierge service, gardener and maintenance, nanny and mistress etc etc
It makes sense, you pick and choose what you want. I will take the underground parking all year around, the gym for 6 months over winter and the mistress every other month (after a year I will have the upgrade model)

God bless you. I will send you the listing of the house for sale.

You will Love it. Perfect for you.

Btw I have decided to also include control of the kitchen appliances that you paid for in full since you seem
To be my target customer.

Since you are only cooking a few times a week no need for you to pay me rent to keep the appliances turned on continually. Gives you more flexibility to pay me rent only when you use the kitchen appliances when you use them.

It’s a great deal because you save money because I do not charge you rent to use the kitchen appliances when you are not using them...even though you paid for them.

Oh, BTW, if the appliances break once they are out of warranty, YOU have to replace them at YOUR COST with new ones at YOUR COST but I still retain the ability to rent out your ability to use them.......BUT only when you need them. (So you are saving money)

You are saving money because I will never charge you rent when you are not using them.

You are my best customer. I will send you a thank you pen and certificate of appreciation you can frame and hang. BTW I can also rent you a frame to hang your certificate of appreciation

 

[xen]

BMW ConnectedDrive | BMW UK

Connect your BMW to the rest of the world with BMW ConnectedDrive services. Discover all digital services in the BMW ConnectedDrive Store.

www.bmw.co.uk

high beam headlights too!!!

Firstly the option is “High Beam Assist” not the high beams themselves…

Secondly most manufacturers charge for this so that’s not new either. Actually clicking through and using this as an example

3 year subscription - £150
Unlimited (old fashioned purchase) - £200

THEY ARE NOT REMOVING YOUR ABILITY TO PAY FOR OPTIONS LIKE YOU ALWAYS HAVE!!! THEY ARE SIMPLY OFFERING ANOTHER PAYMENT MODEL THAT WORKS FOR QUITE A FEW USE-CASES (LEASES IN PARTICULAR).

 

[kratedisease]

House analogy works for smart homes.
You buy the house and then you decide on whether to keep your alarm subscription, cleaning and laundry service, 24 hour camera monitoring and cloud based recording, Internet subscription, your multiple TV entertainment packages, music subscription, the gym equipment on subscription, the underground parking that you share, concierge service, gardener and maintenance, nanny and mistress etc etc
It makes sense, you pick and choose what you want. I will take the underground parking all year around, the gym for 6 months over winter and the mistress every other month (after a year I will have the upgrade model)

There is nothing wrong with paying for a service of labor or materials that you do not own. That is rent

It is wrong and stupid to defend the charge for use of something you outright own and have already paid for.

Not a difficult concept to understand.

Like I said, if you lease a BMW I can fully understand these subscriptions because as a person who is renting the BMW under a lease you are not the owner but a renter of the car.

If you pay in full to have ownership of the vehicle and then defend the loss of the control of your materials that you have paid for is pure stupidity.

 

[Porter]

Honestly, this house analogy is a thing of art.

 

[Leonard]

God bless you. I will send you the listing of the house for sale.

You will Love it. Perfect for you.

Btw I have decided to also include control of the kitchen appliances that you paid for in full since you seem
To be my target customer.

Since you are only cooking a few times a week no need for you to pay me rent to keep the appliances turned on continually. Gives you more flexibility to pay me rent only when you use the kitchen appliances when you use them.

It’s a great deal because you save money because I do not charge you rent to use the kitchen appliances when you are not using them...even though you paid for them.

Oh, BTW, if the appliances break once they are out of warranty, YOU have to replace them at YOUR COST with new ones at YOUR COST but I still retain the ability to rent out your ability to use them.......BUT only when you need them. (So you are saving money)

You are saving money because I will never charge you rent when you are not using them.

You are my best customer. I will send you a thank you pen and certificate of appreciation you can frame and hang. BTW I can also rent you a frame to hang your certificate of appreciation

Sounds good. But obviously I'm expecting a significant reduction on the house price initially and then you may or may not recoup that depending on what I choose to use

 

[Leonard]

If you pay in full to have ownership of the vehicle and then defend the loss of the control of your materials that you have paid for is pure stupidity.

If you are paying in FULL for ALL options then that is what you get.
If you are happy to pay less and don't get access to those same options, why are you complaining lol.
Beauty is If you change your mind you can still have them! There is no bad scenario here

 

[eriegz]

Another key point that's being missed for the sake of being sensationalist is that you still have the option to purchase the feature outright if you want to.

You're right that the "buy outright" point was being glossed-over so far in this discussion. I actually did read the entire article initially, and I acknowledge that it sounds like BMW customers will have the option to "buy" their seat heating feature outright.

However, there's still a couple of glaring problems with this:

I strongly suspect that those customers will be getting double-billed for the seat heating feature. If you think that BMW is just putting seat heating mechanisms inside all of their cars for free, out of the goodness of their hearts, you're fooling yourself. They're a for-profit company. They would have nothing to gain from putting disabled hardware that never got used over its lifetime inside of their vehicles, and so this means they'll either bake the cost of the item into the vehicle price anyway to cover their manufacturing, inventory, & installation costs, or they'll apply marketing pressure on you after the vehicle purchase, in order to make you purchase the feature & recoup their costs. Personally, I'm not interested in either scenario.

Additionally, I strongly suspect that the "buy outright" functionality will still require regular internet check-ins for the remainder of the car's life, meaning one day you're going to be out of cell reception, or the car will only work on 4G signals and everything's moved to 5G, or etc., etc. It's going to happen.

The reason for the push-back from people like myself when stories like this one come to light isn't because change is scary and I don't like it: it's because schemes like this only serve to profit shareholders, and end up eroding the rights and autonomy of the consumer. Any reasonable person should also oppose it.

 

[Porter]

If you are paying in FULL for ALL options then that is what you get.
If you are happy to pay less and don't get access to those same options, why are you complaining lol.
Beauty is If you change your mind you can still have them! There is no bad scenario here

Ah, I see the problem. You've bought into the myth of inherent value, i.e. the vehicle is worth X because the manufacturer is charging X for it.

Flip the equation. The vehicle is "worth" the sum of the parts, labor, engineering, and logistics to design, build, and deliver the thing to a customer. The costs are variable because the parts mix is variable depending on options. The profit margin the manufacturer charges on top of their loaded costs is usually relatively fixed proportion for any given model, and is a mutually understood component of the price that all customers pay in roughly the same measure (at MSRP) if they are in the same purchasing scenario (regional, currency, etc).

What we're describing here is a scenario where the parts, labor, engineering etc become fixed at a higher, fully loaded cost (due to all the parts being included by default), and the profit still stays fixed. That's the issue. ALL customers are paying up front for the baked-in cost of the options, and then they are paying AGAIN on top of that to enable the present-but-sabotaged features that they've already physically bought.

It's rent-seeking. They are rinsing the customer. It's cynical, anti-consumer, dystopian bullshit. It's a ratchet on the slide toward being forced to pay a fee for each square of toilet paper that you use after you paid in full for the roll. Please don't keep trying to rationalize it as something innovative.

 

[eriegz]

it’s different: you can buy a lifetime subscription upfront - which is just another way of describing our existing pay for the hardware option approach -if you want to for 415. So I would assume you’d only subscribe shorter term if it was financially sensible.

In the uk I’ll need the heated seats 3 months per year at 18pm, 3 years, total 162; if I go unlimited / pay for a heated seat option they will charge me 415. If I finance on pcp ( most uk consumers use this model) with a 50% future value, I’ll pay roughly 255 inc interest @7%

Clearly subscription is much better value for me…. It would cost me over 50% more to buy the option/unlimited

Unless BMW are planning to send a technician over to your driveway at 2am to silently remove any hardware that you've "unsubscribed" to, then you're paying for it twice.

 

[xen]

You're right that the "buy outright" point was being glossed-over so far in this discussion. I actually did read the entire article initially, and I acknowledge that it sounds like BMW customers will have the option to "buy" their seat heating feature outright.

However, there's still a couple of glaring problems with this:

I strongly suspect that those customers will be getting double-billed for the seat heating feature. If you think that BMW is just putting seat heating mechanisms inside all of their cars for free, out of the goodness of their hearts, you're fooling yourself. They're a for-profit company. They would have nothing to gain from putting disabled hardware that never got used over its lifetime inside of their vehicles, and so this means they'll either bake the cost of the item into the vehicle price anyway to cover their manufacturing, inventory, & installation costs, or they'll apply marketing pressure on you after the vehicle purchase, in order to make you purchase the feature & recoup their costs. Personally, I'm not interested in either scenario.

All sounds reasonable at first but you’re making three specious arguments:

Firstly economies of scale can work in such a way that it’s actually cheaper for BMW to fit heated seats into every car than it is to design, stock and maintain two seat SKU’s. No, I’m not fooling myself, You're just misguided and not aware that costs can work counter-intuitively at scale. You’re right they are for-profit and this is likely why they’re doing this (as well as lowering the price barrier and offering trials).

Additionally, I strongly suspect that the "buy outright" functionality will still require regular internet check-ins for the remainder of the car's life, meaning one day you're going to be out of cell reception, or the car will only work on 4G signals and everything's moved to 5G, or etc., etc. It's going to happen.

Secondly, it’s very easy to design subscriptions / software to fail ‘on’ i.e. if the car looses an internet connection it retains its previous state. This is already, as you can imagine fairly common.

The reason for the push-back from people like myself when stories like this one come to light isn't because change is scary and I don't like it: it's because schemes like this only serve to profit shareholders, and end up eroding the rights and autonomy of the consumer. Any reasonable person should also oppose it.

Finally, the right of the consumer is the right to choose - which ironically is what BMW are doing here…giving you (more)choices. Nobody is taking that right away from you. The point of every for-profit company is to create value for shareholders. As long as you don’t live in the forest surviving off nature you’ve already accepted this fact. I really don't see what companies making profits and consumer rights have to do with this.

 

[Leonard]

You're right that the "buy outright" point was being glossed-over so far in this discussion. I actually did read the entire article initially, and I acknowledge that it sounds like BMW customers will have the option to "buy" their seat heating feature outright.

However, there's still a couple of glaring problems with this:

I strongly suspect that those customers will be getting double-billed for the seat heating feature. If you think that BMW is just putting seat heating mechanisms inside all of their cars for free, out of the goodness of their hearts, you're fooling yourself. They're a for-profit company. They would have nothing to gain from putting disabled hardware that never got used over its lifetime inside of their vehicles, and so this means they'll either bake the cost of the item into the vehicle price anyway to cover their manufacturing, inventory, & installation costs, or they'll apply marketing pressure on you after the vehicle purchase, in order to make you purchase the feature & recoup their costs. Personally, I'm not interested in either scenario.

Additionally, I strongly suspect that the "buy outright" functionality will still require regular internet check-ins for the remainder of the car's life, meaning one day you're going to be out of cell reception, or the car will only work on 4G signals and everything's moved to 5G, or etc., etc. It's going to happen.

The reason for the push-back from people like myself when stories like this one come to light isn't because change is scary and I don't like it: it's because schemes like this only serve to profit shareholders, and end up eroding the rights and autonomy of the consumer. Any reasonable person should also oppose it.

Going to have to agree to disagree on all of that
It won't cost more because of economies of scale. Connectivity won't be an issue as it works via satellite signal and it still offers every benefit cash buyers get already, but is also better for when they resell, those people buying second hand and leasers and dealers. Someone please explain what the actual issue is please. Because I'm starting to feel I'm surrounded by flat earthers

 

[Mctaff]

You're right that the "buy outright" point was being glossed-over so far in this discussion. I actually did read the entire article initially, and I acknowledge that it sounds like BMW customers will have the option to "buy" their seat heating feature outright.

However, there's still a couple of glaring problems with this:

I strongly suspect that those customers will be getting double-billed for the seat heating feature. If you think that BMW is just putting seat heating mechanisms inside all of their cars for free, out of the goodness of their hearts, you're fooling yourself. They're a for-profit company. They would have nothing to gain from putting disabled hardware that never got used over its lifetime inside of their vehicles, and so this means they'll either bake the cost of the item into the vehicle price anyway to cover their manufacturing, inventory, & installation costs, or they'll apply marketing pressure on you after the vehicle purchase, in order to make you purchase the feature & recoup their costs. Personally, I'm not interested in either scenario.

Additionally, I strongly suspect that the "buy outright" functionality will still require regular internet check-ins for the remainder of the car's life, meaning one day you're going to be out of cell reception, or the car will only work on 4G signals and everything's moved to 5G, or etc., etc. It's going to happen.

The reason for the push-back from people like myself when stories like this one come to light isn't because change is scary and I don't like it: it's because schemes like this only serve to profit shareholders, and end up eroding the rights and autonomy of the consumer. Any reasonable person should also oppose it.

BMW are not putting heated seats in out of the goodness of their hearts, and I’m sure no one thinks they are

They are doing it because they will make more money by keeping selling the subscription over the lifetime of the vehicle - although I acknowledge the currency problems in hardware/software called out elsewhere and ability to get people to sign up on a 10 yr old car, especially if the prices are the same.

In addition people who don’t need the features all the time will pay less, as per my earlier illustration. So, both consumer and supplier are happy. I agree some people may pay more if they don’t think about the cost model properly. I also think this is a poor idea environmentally.

This subscription income will more than cover the fact they are not charging upfront for the hardware, which their website clearly indicates they are not doing.

 

[Leonard]

Ah, I see the problem. You've bought into the myth of inherent value, i.e. the vehicle is worth X because the manufacturer is charging X for it.

Flip the equation. The vehicle is "worth" the sum of the parts, labor, engineering, and logistics to design, build, and deliver the thing to a customer. The costs are variable because the parts mix is variable depending on options. The profit margin the manufacturer charges on top of their loaded costs is usually relatively fixed proportion for any given model, and is a mutually understood component of the price that all customers pay in roughly the same measure (at MSRP) if they are in the same purchasing scenario (regional, currency, etc).

What we're describing here is a scenario where the parts, labor, engineering etc become fixed at a higher, fully loaded cost (due to all the parts being included by default), and the profit still stays fixed. That's the issue. ALL customers are paying up front for the baked-in cost of the options, and then they are paying AGAIN on top of that to enable the present-but-sabotaged features that they've already physically bought.

It's rent-seeking. They are rinsing the customer. It's cynical, anti-consumer, dystopian bullshit. It's a ratchet on the slide toward being forced to pay a fee for each square of toilet paper that you use after you paid in full for the roll. Please don't keep trying to rationalize it as something innovative.

But the parts don't, because all the cars are built to the same recipe.
They could reduce costs by not including all of these options but then everyone would be complaining that they don't have any options! This is the best of both worlds for manufacturer and consumer without rising product and production costs

 

[Leonard]

BMW are not putting heated seats in out of the goodness of their hearts, and I’m sure no one thinks they are

They are doing it because they will make more money by keeping selling the subscription over the lifetime of the vehicle - although I acknowledge the currency problems in hardware/software called out elsewhere and ability to get people to sign up on a 10 yr old car, especially if the prices are the same.

In addition people who don’t need the features all the time will pay less, as per my earlier illustration. So, both consumer and supplier are happy. I agree some people may pay more if they don’t think about the cost model properly. I also think this is a poor idea environmentally.

This subscription income will more than cover the fact they are not charging upfront for the hardware, which their website clearly indicates they are not doing.

The subscriptions will work for most people when the car is newer.
When it's older you wouldn't be suprised to see dealers 'turning on' features permanently to encourage resale on what would be a less desirable car otherwise