Is This For Real? BMW Charging to use heated seats?

[Porter]

All sounds reasonable at first but you’re making three specious arguments:

Firstly economies of scale can work in such a way that it’s actually cheaper for BMW to fit heated seats into every car than it is to design, stock and maintain two seat SKU’s. No, I’m not fooling myself, You're just misguided and not aware that costs can work counter-intuitively at scale. You’re right they are for-profit and this is likely why they’re doing this (as well as lowering the price barrier and offering trials).

I don't agree that this is possible in any high cost, highly complex, multi-OEM-sourced mechanical product. There are really significant costs inherent in the options that can't be bulk-averaged away.

Secondly, it’s very easy to design subscriptions / software to fail ‘on’ i.e. if the car looses an internet connection it retains its previous state. This is already, as you can imagine fairly common.

No manufacturer will do this on this type of pay-to-play program, because it will invite code-enable-and-comms-disable schemes in the aftermarket which will eat their profits. Control pathologies always trump consumer rights where corporate behaviors are concerned.

Finally, the right of the consumer is the right to choose - which ironically is what BMW are doing here…giving you (more)choices. Nobody is taking that right away from you. The point of every for-profit company is to create value for shareholders. As long as you don’t live in the forest surviving off nature you’ve already accepted this fact. I really don't see what companies making profits and consumer rights have to do with this.

I think it's completely fair for consumers to analyze and criticize the actions of corporations, particularly around changes to the pricing model of existing products that those consumers own and use and have personal history with, including making recommendations to others. "That's capitalism, get over it" isn't a particularly useful position in this context.

 

[Porter]

The subscriptions will work for most people when the car is newer.
When it's older you wouldn't be suprised to see dealers 'turning on' features permanently to encourage resale on what would be a less desirable car otherwise

They won't be able to do that, because the system to enable and license the features will inevitably go dark. No corporation will keep that infrastructure running for old models past a 10 or 15 year timeframe. It will all just be abandoned as tech changes. Absolutely inevitable.

 

[Mctaff]

When it's older you wouldn't be suprised to see dealers 'turning on' features permanently to encourage resale on what would be a less desirable car otherwise

Yea I thought that was the answer too - also removes currency concerns re legacy hardware etc

 

[eriegz]

All sounds reasonable at first but you’re making three specious arguments:

Firstly economies of scale can work in such a way that it’s actually cheaper for BMW to fit heated seats into every car than it is to design, stock and maintain two seat SKU’s. No, I’m not fooling myself, You're just misguided and not aware that costs can work counter-intuitively at scale. You’re right they are for-profit and this is likely why they’re doing this (as well as lowering the price barrier and offering trials).



Secondly, it’s very easy to design subscriptions / software to fail ‘on’ i.e. if the car looses an internet connection it retains its previous state. This is already, as you can imagine fairly common.



Finally, the right of the consumer is the right to choose - which ironically is what BMW are doing here…giving you (more)choices. Nobody is taking that right away from you. The point of every for-profit company is to create value for shareholders. As long as you don’t live in the forest surviving off nature you’ve already accepted this fact. I really don't see what companies making profits and consumer rights have to do with this.

You make a good point about "fail on" (or shall we say "fail enabled", as it would be disastrous if heated seats failed "on" ). However, an internet-connected seat heating mechanism is fundamentally a more complex device than a "dumb", offline seat heating mechanism. And as someone who works with complex systems for a living, let me assure you: systems that are more complex are more expensive to build & maintain, and have more possibilities to go wrong.

Also, in no possible universe does the consumer actually save money under BMW's new scheme. Economies of scale does not mean that eventually it will cost negative dollars to produce something. It just means that the per-unit cost will approach — but never fall below — zero as the number of units increases. So, if we were to take two different SKUs:

• A regular seat heating mechanism, and
• The same seat heating mechanism, but wrapped inside of an internet-connected padlock

...the latter will always cost more to build.

And if somehow during the development of the latter, they discover a way to actually build it for less money than the former, then this also means that the former can now be built for less money too! This is because of the underlying technology involved: there's nothing about seat heating mechanisms that have anything to do with the internet-connected padlock. A seat heater does not NEED a padlock in order to function, the same way that your wife does not NEED a chastity belt in order for you to consummate your marriage.

Finally, yes, we as consumers have the right to NOT buy a new BMW, or the right to NOT pay for this ridiculous new feature. That's what I'm trying to advocate for here.

 

[Leonard]

They won't be able to do that, because the system to enable and license the features will inevitably go dark. No corporation will keep that infrastructure running for old models past a 10 or 15 year timeframe. It will all just be abandoned as tech changes. Absolutely inevitable.

It's an encypted on off switch in the ECU nothing more

 

[Leonard]

Also, in no possible universe does the consumer actually save money under BMW's new scheme. Economies of scale does not mean that eventually it will cost negative dollars to produce something. It just means that the per-unit cost will approach — but never fall below — zero as the number of units increases. So, if we were to take two different SKUs:

• A regular seat heating mechanism, and
• The same seat heating mechanism, but wrapped inside of an internet-connected padlock

...the latter will always cost more to build.

I definitely wouldnt bet money on that. The less unique parts/options the faster production is. And that is the ultimate aim for car manufacturers. This is just the next step on from VWs shared MQB platform etc etc It's all marginal gains and when those marginal gains are replicated millions of times the savings are great
Why the Emira FE has set options. Makes it ideal as a launch car as its faster to produce than the base model and gives maximum return on investment.

 

[PaulP]

Going to have to agree to disagree on all of that
It won't cost more because of economies of scale. Connectivity won't be an issue as it works via satellite signal and it still offers every benefit cash buyers get already, but is also better for when they resell, those people buying second hand and leasers and dealers. Someone please explain what the actual issue is please. Because I'm starting to feel I'm surrounded by flat earthers

DIVX

 

[Mctaff]

Also, in no possible universe does the consumer actually save money under BMW's new scheme. .

Other than in the financial example I gave earlier of course, and any similar scenario?

 

[Leonard]

DIVX

Time will tell, but unfortunately I think with the introduction of EV vehicles and associated tech this one is here to stay.

 

[Leonard]

Other than in the financial example I gave earlier of course, and any similar scenario?

And me. 100 pounds a time to clear my Golf Windscreen of ice in 2 years ownership
I'd have had more fun paying my missus a 100 squid to do it in a bikini freezing her proverbials off!

 

[Mctaff]

And me. 100 pounds a time to clear my Golf Windscreen of ice in 2 years ownership
I'd have had more fun paying my missus a 100 squid to do it in a bikini freezing her proverbials off!

My home link on my second hand car has cost me infinity pounds per use so far, at c150 estimated second hand cost divided by zero use

Damn that’s not cheap!!

 

[NicolasB]

Admins - Please setup @Leonard to have a fee charged for every post he makes, also per page view of different threads. He seems happy enough to roll over and take it, and he may even thank you for the charges it seems.

 

[eriegz]

I definitely wouldnt bet money on that. The less unique parts/options the faster production is. And that is the ultimate aim for car manufacturers. This is just the next step on from VWs shared MQB platform etc etc It's all marginal gains and when those marginal gains are replicated millions of times the savings are great
Why the Emira FE has set options. Makes it ideal as a launch car as its faster to produce than the base model and gives maximum return on investment.

Uniqueness / customization is just one aspect of production costs.

The other is the cost of building the underlying items themselves: A internet-padlocked seat heater is, fundamentally, a seat heater... with an internet padlock! One can exist without the other. It does not cost negative dollars to add an internet padlock to an otherwise-functional, standalone seat heater.

Also, don't forget all of the software engineers who built & maintain the activation software to make this scheme happen, or all of the data centre costs where the activation servers are hosted! Those all cost money too. That's why I said "in no possible universe" is the consumer saving money here. There is no way that simply by reducing the number of configurations in their cars, BMW somehow gets all of this additional hardware, all of the software engineers' yearly salaries, and all of their data centre costs, "for free", to pass along to the consumer.

Other than in the financial example I gave earlier of course, and any similar scenario?

Sorry, I thought I covered all previous points made in this thread. Which example of yours did I miss?

 

[Leonard]

Admins - Please setup @Leonard to have a fee charged for every post he makes, also per page view of different threads. He seems happy enough to roll over and take it, and he may even thank you for the charges it seems.

Why is everyone completely ignoring ANY FACTS. Anyone would think this is a forum on the internet

 

[Leonard]

Uniqueness / customization is just one aspect of production costs.

The other is the cost of building the underlying items themselves: A internet-padlocked seat heater is, fundamentally, a seat heater... with an internet padlock! One can exist without the other. It does not cost negative dollars to add an internet padlock to an otherwise-functional, standalone seat heater.

Also, don't forget all of the software engineers who built & maintain the activation software to make this scheme happen, or all of the data centre costs where the activation servers are hosted! Those all cost money too. That's why I said "in no possible universe" is the consumer saving money here. There is no way that simply by reducing the number of configurations in their cars, BMW somehow gets all of this additional hardware, all of the software engineers' yearly salaries, and all of their data centre costs, "for free", to pass along to the consumer.

Sorry, I thought I covered all previous points made in this thread. Which example of yours did I miss?

Why do you think Lotus added power mirrors to ALL Evoras. Because it was cheaper to do so...
That's a bad example, but true.
Production costs far outlway material costs

 

[Mctaff]

Secondly, it’s very easy to design subscriptions / software to fail ‘on’ i.e. if the car looses an internet connection it retains its previous state. This is already, as you can imagine fairly common.

I’d think a token with particular lifespan and permissions are provided at subscription, which is stored in the car. Once it expires - eg at the end of the month - the controller in the car needs to connect and get another token… with some grace period in the event of comms failure.

This means you don’t need a regular connection to keep the features enabled.

 

[Leonard]

Admins - Please setup @Leonard to have a fee charged for every post he makes, also per page view of different threads. He seems happy enough to roll over and take it, and he may even thank you for the charges it seems.

IF this forum cost 100 pounds for unlimited useage, as a prolific poster I would pay it.
IF I wanted to contribute a couple of posts a month I would pay £1 a post instead or a 10 pound a month subscription.
IF I wasn't sure I wanted to be a part of this forum I would pay 10 pounds for one month and then assess what option is best for me blah blah

 

[Mctaff]

IF this forum cost 100 pounds for unlimited useage, as a prolific poster I would pay it.
IF I wanted to contribute a couple of posts a month I would pay £1 a post instead or a 10 pound a month subscription.
IF I wasn't sure I wanted to be a part of this forum I would pay 10 pounds for one month and then assess what option is best for me blah blah

How much is the subscription to stop Leonard posting??!

 

[eriegz]

Why do you think Lotus added power mirrors to ALL Evoras. Because it was cheaper to do so...

That's true. Also, I didn't even know this fact about the Evora mirrors until I read this thread.

I need some more information about Lotus' power mirrors example: so all mirrors had motors in them, and if customers paid an extra one-time fee, a technician would plug a device into the car and electronically "flip a switch" to enable the power option? Also, are you saying that all cars would then have little electronic controls on the inside of the driver's door, even if they weren't functional?

If all of that is true, then here are my thoughts on that:

• I hate it.

 

[Leonard]

How much is the subscription to stop Leonard posting??!

50 each, one off payment should do it