Shifting in V6 manual

[KAR120C]

I'll grant that standard teaching is going to tell you to remove your foot from throttle to do any clutch-in operation, and it should drop the RPM once you have begun clutch in. But, overall, if you are really shifting fast, this isn't that much different from downshifting without throttle blip. If you are shifting fast, acting as if you a doing something like drag racing, I would point to the fact that tire-chirp on gear shift indicates there is the shock to the drive line.



I don't know about you, but I don't flat-foot downshift, Most time when I'm realizing I need to downshift, I'm just cruising at highway speed, I definitely don't go full throttle before downshifting. So, yeah you definitely are not going to be matching engine speed and trans shaft speed at that point. I know a number of other cars do auto-rev matching for situations like this though.

I’m a little confused over your example. Upshift tire chirping is only the result of clutch release speed and amount of throttle. That is, unmatched revs with a lot of power means the tires are forced to spin to adjust. Speed of the shift is irrelevant.

The point of downshift rev matching is not to go full throttle on downshift. Just enough make it smooth. If you are just downshifting to accelerate just keep enough throttle so revs climb while you complete the shift. Then hard throttle.

I assure you that with practice it is not difficult to rev match in every situation shifting up or down. It’ll become SOP and you won’t even need to think about it. Tire chirp just says you haven’t mastered it yet or are willing to put your drivetrain through a hard shock.

 

[Tomwa]

I’m a little confused over your example. Upshift tire chirping is only the result of clutch release speed and amount of throttle. That is, unmatched revs with a lot of power means the tires are forced to spin to adjust. Speed of the shift is irrelevant.

The point of downshift rev matching is not to go full throttle on downshift. Just enough make it smooth. If you are just downshifting to accelerate just keep enough throttle so revs climb while you complete the shift. Then hard throttle.

I assure you that with practice it is not difficult to rev match in every situation shifting up or down. It’ll become SOP and you won’t even need to think about it. Tire chirp just says you haven’t mastered it yet or are willing to put your drivetrain through a hard shock.

In complete agreement.

The point I was making about tire chirp on upshift is exactly that. There is a driveline shock from the mismatched revs between trans and engine. I refer to the speed of the shift (on upshifts) because it does have some role to play in whether or not the engine RPM has drop down enough in-process to match the engine RPM to the trans. But overall, even if you aren't hearing tire-chirp, because maybe your tires are too sticky or any number of other things, it doesn't mean that the clutch is not seeing that speed delta as an 'event'.

The point was just that people talk about rev-match downshifting, and using heel toe as a standard practice everyone should be doing to extend the life of clutch etc, and no one mentions that such wear occurs on upshifts as well.

I'm perfectly well versed in doing heel toe, and rev matching, could I be better? I'm sure I could. But I also don't drive around race cars all that much, and in my opinion the conditions in which using it makes more sense, which is the cornering dynamics as you stated. Drive-line shocks disturb the vehicle.

When it comes to preserving the clutch and daily/casual driving however. While it's fun to think about or play with heel-toe, I just don't think you are going to save the clutch in a significant way. Will it delay the replacement by 1 year? Unlikely. Do you still need to ease in the clutch pulling in/out of parking spots? Reversing? Beginning rolling away from a stoplight? Yeah all those things are still true.

By all means, have fun and enjoy 3 pedal dancing, make it something that feels eventful to drive the car. But, overall just drive it smooth and be empathetic. Need not pretend like the clutch replacement will be 20,000 miles later than someone who is driving it "normally".

 

[chatman]

Lots of good info here. One question on downshifts, I know you blip the throttle when downshifting to match the rpms to the engine speed so it’s less wear on the clutch, but, do you guys blip the throttle when you want to accelerate and pass someone as well?

Yes, but it's pretty subtle. Just enough to avoid any jerkiness in the downshift, or unwelcome surge as you add more throttle to accelerate.

 

[KAR120C]

In complete agreement.
...
The point was just that people talk about rev-match downshifting, and using heel toe as a standard practice everyone should be doing to extend the life of clutch etc, and no one mentions that such wear occurs on upshifts as well.
....

I think maybe the point of confusion is that, in my opinion, the upshift impact does not happen the same as downshift. People naturally reduce their RPM during an upshift, and the input side of the transmission is also slowed in a higher gear so there is a closer match in rpm to the 2 plates of the clutch. Less clutch wear and driveline shock.

In down shifting, if you make no attempt to match, you reduce your RPM and also increase the input side of the transmission resulting in a huge mismatch of the 2 clutch plates resulting in clutch wear, engine zing, and heavy rear wheel braking.

It's a very different impact.

 

[chatman]

I really don't see why not.

I will grant you that while slowing down you would be doing engine braking, and putting the car under vacuum so it won't be adding fuel. But, who can raise their hand here and say "as I was slowing down to the intersection I had to do a maneuver that included a large or immediate application of throttle" ?

I would say, the inverse is likely more true. Which is, "As I was slowing down to stop, there was an accidental application of throttle that caused an issue or accident".

Wait, really? "But, who can raise their hand here and say 'as I was slowing down to the intersection I had to do a maneuver that included a large or immediate application of throttle?'" I'd think a lot of people could raise their hand on that one. What about when you're slowing down for the red light and it turns green? Or when you're slowing down on account of a slow driver in front of you that turns or lane-changes out of your way?

 

[Tomwa]

Wait, really? "But, who can raise their hand here and say 'as I was slowing down to the intersection I had to do a maneuver that included a large or immediate application of throttle?'" I'd think a lot of people could raise their hand on that one. What about when you're slowing down for the red light and it turns green? Or when you're slowing down on account of a slow driver in front of you that turns or lane-changes out of your way?

I'm talking about you are slowing down for a light, it's still red. The case of "i started slowing down and the light changed" sure... being in gear means rolling right back on the throttle and get to moving, but usually you aren't faced with "you had better immediately respond to the green light, because someone behind you never bothered to start slowing for the red"

The point was people say, and apparently some testing in euro drivers license/schooling says. When slowing to a stop, do not just clutch in and/or drop completely out of gear and roll in neutral while applying brakes to come to a stop. I just think that's not really a condition worth being so specific about.

In standard traffic I've never felt I'm so rushed about stop signs, or lights that I need to always have some 'application of throttle' immediately available should the need arise. In stop & go traffic/traffic jam situation? Sure, likely that is why people find it so tiring to be in a manual car.

 

[Tomwa]

I think maybe the point of confusion is that, in my opinion, the upshift impact does not happen the same as downshift. People naturally reduce their RPM during an upshift, and the input side of the transmission is also slowed in a higher gear so there is a closer match in rpm to the 2 plates of the clutch. Less clutch wear and driveline shock.

In down shifting, if you make no attempt to match, you reduce your RPM and also increase the input side of the transmission resulting in a huge mismatch of the 2 clutch plates resulting in clutch wear, engine zing, and heavy rear wheel braking.

It's a very different impact.

If you are driving in a manner where heel-toe seems a natural part of 'driving fast' or being urgent about what gear you are in, etc. I don't see how you then want to say "normal driving for upshift" I think those are 2 different conditions.

If you are really shifting fast you absolutely run into the engine RPM is too high to match the trans.

Flat foot shifting for aftermarket engine control units is a thing, and it allows you to program the engine to drop RPM (cut fuel) between shifts while you have never removed your foot from the gas pedal. Chirping tires is chirping tires.

If the claim is, you should "always be doing some kind of heel toe to downshift", I don't think it is wrong to point out that you can mistreat your clutch in a similar way on upshift. It is less common, I will agree, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's just that the condition you are trying to avoid (any delta in speed between the clutch plate/flywheel) is made worse in the lack of throttle application during downshifts, where as on an upshift a reasonable pace going through the gears is usually enough to ensure no significant delta.

 

[KAR120C]

I'm talking about you are slowing down for a light, it's still red. The case of "i started slowing down and the light changed" sure... being in gear means rolling right back on the throttle and get to moving, but usually you aren't faced with "you had better immediately respond to the green light, because someone behind you never bothered to start slowing for the red"

The point was people say, and apparently some testing in euro drivers license/schooling says. When slowing to a stop, do not just clutch in and/or drop completely out of gear and roll in neutral while applying brakes to come to a stop. I just think that's not really a condition worth being so specific about.

In standard traffic I've never felt I'm so rushed about stop signs, or lights that I need to always have some 'application of throttle' immediately available should the need arise. In stop & go traffic/traffic jam situation? Sure, likely that is why people find it so tiring to be in a manual car.

In some states coasting in neutral is illegal. Must be something behind having such a law on the books.

 

[Tomwa]

In some states coasting in neutral is illegal. Must be something behind having such a law on the books.

The fact that a law (road traffic rules aren't actually laws btw) exists does not indicate anything about their actual validity, let alone whether they are actually enforced or have a reasonable mechanism for enforcement.

Some states don't have such laws, does that mean they are more valid about not enforcing that? Some states have "left lane for passing" rules, others don't. etc. etc. Let alone actual laws that still exist around what happens in the privacy of ones own bedroom between consenting adults. Do those have 'safety' or 'rational' reasons for existing? The law is a terrible reference for evidence to rationality.

 

[KAR120C]

If you are driving in a manner where heel-toe seems a natural part of 'driving fast' or being urgent about what gear you are in, etc. I don't see how you then want to say "normal driving for upshift" I think those are 2 different conditions.

If you are really shifting fast you absolutely run into the engine RPM is too high to match the trans.

Flat foot shifting for aftermarket engine control units is a thing, and it allows you to program the engine to drop RPM (cut fuel) between shifts while you have never removed your foot from the gas pedal. Chirping tires is chirping tires.

If the claim is, you should "always be doing some kind of heel toe to downshift", I don't think it is wrong to point out that you can mistreat your clutch in a similar way on upshift. It is less common, I will agree, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's just that the condition you are trying to avoid (any delta in speed between the clutch plate/flywheel) is made worse in the lack of throttle application during downshifts, where as on an upshift a reasonable pace going through the gears is usually enough to ensure no significant delta.

Rev matching and heel/toeing IS a natural part of my normal driving. No "urgent" or "fast" modifiers needed. And yes, anyone can abuse a clutch and it certainly happens but why tolerate it if not required.

I like the way I drive and it's suited me well for many years on road and track. You like the way you drive and it appears to suit you.

Everybody just go out and enjoy driving your Emira, no matter how you do it!

 

[Tomwa]

Rev matching and heel/toeing IS a natural part of my normal driving. No "urgent" or "fast" modifiers needed. And yes, anyone can abuse a clutch and it certainly happens but why tolerate it if not required.

I like the way I drive and it's suited me well for many years on road and track. You like the way you drive and it appears to suit you.

Everybody just go out and enjoy driving your Emira, no matter how you do it!

At the heart of my statements. This is all I have been trying to point out.

This thread started because someone felt deficient for feeling they were not capable or practiced at being able to heel-toe.

While a lot of people provided some advice, and some videos of the ways various professional drivers approach the method, others also said "hey no, this is something you absolutely need to figure out how to do! its better for the car when performance driving. (agreed for some pretty limited definitions of such), AND it saves your clutch!"

I am generally disagreeing with the latter statement as a matter of an unequal weight being put on downshifting as some condition that will overly wear your clutch.

AS WELL AS trying to point out that heel-toe is fun, but unnecessary in standard traffic, unnecessary in a good amount of spirited driving, and entirely just because that is what the driver ENJOYS doing, not that it diminishes or subtracts from the experience of owning or operating the car.

In all. I'm trying to re-assure what might be the silent majority of folks out there who are perhaps putting their confidence in operating this car in some sort of shadow of doubt. Enjoy the car, being smooth and mechanically empathetic will ensure it treats you well and will be around to be enjoyed.

 

[chatman]

At the heart of my statements. This is all I have been trying to point out.

This thread started because someone felt deficient for feeling they were not capable or practiced at being able to heel-toe.

While a lot of people provided some advice, and some videos of the ways various professional drivers approach the method, others also said "hey no, this is something you absolutely need to figure out how to do! its better for the car when performance driving. (agreed for some pretty limited definitions of such), AND it saves your clutch!"

I am generally disagreeing with the latter statement as a matter of an unequal weight being put on downshifting as some condition that will overly wear your clutch.

AS WELL AS trying to point out that heel-toe is fun, but unnecessary in standard traffic, unnecessary in a good amount of spirited driving, and entirely just because that is what the driver ENJOYS doing, not that it diminishes or subtracts from the experience of owning or operating the car.

In all. I'm trying to re-assure what might be the silent majority of folks out there who are perhaps putting their confidence in operating this car in some sort of shadow of doubt. Enjoy the car, being smooth and mechanically empathetic will ensure it treats you well and will be around to be enjoyed.

I expect "heel-toe" downshifting is largely unnecessary for the vast majority of driving situations, particularly road situations. It's nice if you can nail it (and in my limited experience the Emira makes it a bit easier to do than a lot of cars given the pedal placement), but I rarely find myself needing to do it. A lot of manual cars actually obviate the need to do it at all on account of auto-rev matching.

 

[Lotus64]

I don't know if I have much to add past what's been said, but here is my driving style.

• I always rev match when downshifting, regardless of slowing down or speeding up.
• Clutch in, blip throttle while shifting, then clutch out.
• If I anticipate a full stop, I usually downshift to 3rd and then coast in neutral to a full stop.
• I avoid coasting in neutral unless I anticipate a stop, and even then it's only at very low speed when 3rd gear becomes to tall as being in gear is best practice.
• I rarely downshift into 2nd unless spirited driving and only downshift into first at a full / rolling stop.
• I only heel and toe on track and think it's excessive / unnecessary in daily driving
• I've noticed shifting faster delivers smoother shifts.

For anyone wanting to learn / practice rev matching I recommend the following steps:

1. Maintain a steady speed, maybe in 3rd gear (doesn't matter).
2. Note the rpms and speed in 3rd
3. Immediately up shift to 4th.
4. Note the rpms in 4th and ensure the speed was maintained.
5. Then while maintaining that speed, Immediately downshift to 3rd aiming for the rpm that was noted in step 2 while watching the tach (clutch in, blip throttle while shifting, then clutch out)
6. If the revs were matched correctly the shift will be imperceptible
7. This will let you know exactly how much revs you need when downshifting between the gear ratios.

 

[KAR120C]

Ok, obviously I am a proponent of rev-matching (including heel and toeing while braking), however I do agree it is not necessary. And I apologize if I’ve implied that it is a required skill. The vast majority of people drive their manuals successfully and have never even heard of either one.

When I provide my students with their first track experience they will get an earful on contact patch, traction budget, weight distribution, under and oversteer correction, and correct cornering. They will not get rev matching anywhere in that tool bag.

As they progress they’ll get other stuff like trail braking for example. But, many manual drivers may go through years on track and never bother to learn rev matching or heel and toeing and not really need it.

But, IMO, it is still an important tool for your driving tool bag because at some point in performance driving on road or track, you will probably want to downshift hot in a corner. And you’d better know how it’s done correctly before you do it.

 

[seriously]

I’ll add…

While heel toe is fun I find it unnecessary for Street driving.

Engine braking is especially useful when coasting downhill. I hate riding the brakes.

Tire chirping isn’t always a function of stressing the drivetrain or too much throttle input. It’s often induced because you are generating more torque that the tires can hold grip for. This usually only happens in near full throttle situations. In other words you can still be plenty smooth in your shift and still chirp the tires.

 

[GrahamClark_60-68]

The very first thing I was taught many moons ago at the Jim Russell race school at Laguna Seca was throttle blip and heel-toe downshifting. The non-synchro boxes in the Formula Fords required it and were unforgiving if you missed a blip (i.e., gear crash and not getting into gear at all). Many years of driving full synchro-mesh manuals on the street (smoothly but without blipping) and no track experience since then and suffice it to say I'm a bit rusty! But loving the practice.

 

[RoryBellows]

I dont have my Emira yet but when I drive stick I dont down shift every gear. If Im tooling around town at low speeds and hit a red light ill just depress the clutch till stopped and then shift it into neutral while I wait. I was told a long time ago to not keep the clutch depressed as it wears the throwout bearing. If I'm at speed and see a light in the distance I will down shift into 3rd or 4th until at a lower speed and then do like in town. Maybe if I'm feeling revvy I'll do it again into second before stopping. I generally avoid downshifts to 1st in motion out of an abundance of caution. I see no point in downshifting through all the gears to arrive at a stop light.

 

[Cobra 427]

Look, it's a terrible idea not to downshift when reducing speed, for safety reasons and because that's how it's taught, and it makes perfect sense.

For example, if you're driving in 6th gear on the highway and approaching an exit with a stop sign, you should be downshifting …5th etc at least to 2nd/3rd gear as you get close to the stop. Then, you engage the clutch, brake, and shift to neutral.

1st gear is only used for starting from a stop, and very rarely in tight turns or small circuits.

Who taught you to drive by putting the car in neutral at high speeds to decelerate, having no control or traction if anything unexpected happens?

who is the manufacturer? of the manual gearbox of the lotus emira thank you Philipe

 

[RPM]

Who taught you to drive by putting the car in neutral at high speeds to decelerate

Tom Long (http://www.tomlongracing.com/) and several other professional race car drivers for team Mazda. So... I'm gonna stick with their advice.

 

[morphious]

who is the manufacturer? of the manual gearbox of the lotus emira thank you Philipe

It is a Toyota gear box retooled by Lotus.