Shifting in V6 manual

[Citizen]

Look, it's a terrible idea not to downshift when reducing speed, for safety reasons and because that's how it's taught, and it makes perfect sense.

For example, if you're driving in 6th gear on the highway and approaching an exit with a stop sign, you should be downshifting …5th etc at least to 2nd/3rd gear as you get close to the stop. Then, you engage the clutch, brake, and shift to neutral.

1st gear is only used for starting from a stop, and very rarely in tight turns or small circuits.

Who taught you to drive by putting the car in neutral at high speeds to decelerate, having no control or traction if anything unexpected happens?

 

[chatman]

25 years driving manuals and I have never downshifted when I am decelerating to a stop. For example, exiting a highway onto an exit ramp, I shift from 6th to neutral and coast until I stop.

That's the wrong way to do it, and It'll get you failed on a driving test in the EU. You should always be in an appropriate gear as you slow down. There were a few occasions when I was learning where I flubbed a downshift or something and ended up slowing down in neutral for a bit. But that really shouldn't be the default.

 

[Tomwa]

That's the wrong way to do it, and It'll get you failed on a driving test in the EU. You should always be in an appropriate gear as you slow down. There were a few occasions when I was learning where I flubbed a downshift or something and ended up slowing down in neutral for a bit. But that really shouldn't be the default.

I really don't see why not.

I will grant you that while slowing down you would be doing engine braking, and putting the car under vacuum so it won't be adding fuel. But, who can raise their hand here and say "as I was slowing down to the intersection I had to do a maneuver that included a large or immediate application of throttle" ?

I would say, the inverse is likely more true. Which is, "As I was slowing down to stop, there was an accidental application of throttle that caused an issue or accident".

 

[Blackthought_]

Lots of good info here. One question on downshifts, I know you blip the throttle when downshifting to match the rpms to the engine speed so it’s less wear on the clutch, but, do you guys blip the throttle when you want to accelerate and pass someone as well?

 

[Tomwa]

Lots of good info here. One question on downshifts, I know you blip the throttle when downshifting to match the rpms to the engine speed so it’s less wear on the clutch, but, do you guys blip the throttle when you want to accelerate and pass someone as well?

Are you dropping gear when you do this? Then in theory yes.

While downshifts can induce a shock load, I do find it kind of strange that people talk about it as a way to reduce clutch wear, since no one is suggesting when you up-shift to wait off throttle between gears to let the engine RPM drop down and match the next gear. Why would these loads be any different?

 

[Blackthought_]

Are you dropping gear when you do this? Then in theory yes.

While downshifts can induce a shock load, I do find it kind of strange that people talk about it as a way to reduce clutch wear, since no one is suggesting when you up-shift to wait off throttle between gears to let the engine RPM drop down and match the next gear. Why would these loads be any different?

Yeah dropping gears is what I meant. Logically it makes sense to blip the throttle but I don’t see too many people talking about it

 

[seriously]

Yeah dropping gears is what I meant. Logically it makes sense to blip the throttle but I don’t see too many people talking about it

I would think of downshifting in a straight line as rev matching. You are already accelerating with foot on the throttle and while you downshift you give it more throttle to match the higher rev range you should be in for a smooth transition.

The blip is really for heel toe while you are braking into a corner. In this situation you are decelerating and under braking- no throttle. Revs are falling under braking. Then while you are braking, you downshift and stab or blip the throttle to increase the revs beyond the point needed to be in the lower gear. While still under braking- the next gear will catch and smooth out the revs, then you get back on the gas and throttle out.

A minor point of clarification but it helps me to think about it this way. Shifting up, downshifting and heel toe all require different throttle inputs to perform smoothly.

 

[KAR120C]

While downshifts can induce a shock load, I do find it kind of strange that people talk about it as a way to reduce clutch wear, since no one is suggesting when you up-shift to wait off throttle between gears to let the engine RPM drop down and match the next gear. Why would these loads be any different?

Letting off throttle and dropping rpms between gear changes on an upshift is just normal procedure you learn when learning to drive a manual. You roll back on the throttle smoothly as you let the clutch back out to prevent that shock and save the clutch.

Downshifting is a different animal since it requires an extra blip of the throttle to get the rev match and is not something everyone is experienced with.

 

[KAR120C]

I really don't see why not.

I will grant you that while slowing down you would be doing engine braking, and putting the car under vacuum so it won't be adding fuel. But, who can raise their hand here and say "as I was slowing down to the intersection I had to do a maneuver that included a large or immediate application of throttle" ?

I would say, the inverse is likely more true. Which is, "As I was slowing down to stop, there was an accidental application of throttle that caused an issue or accident".

I'll raise my hand. It's happened many times. Everytime the light turns green as I'm slowing for a stop and I want to keep moving. Also has saved my butt a few times when a car/truck behind is clearly not going to be able to stop and I give it the beans to give us both a chance to avoid a collision. Hell, I've accelerated through a red light to avoid getting run over by a truck.

 

[KCDarkV]

Update from Day 2.

Most of my comments remain the same. HOWEVER I had a lot more opportunity to test different things since there were only 4 novices in the green group Sunday and they didn't need instructors. Talk about a wide open track!

I did go ahead and bring the car up to it's limits (and beyond). The very neutral handling goes back to an understeer at the limit. It's a smooth transition and easy to control, but if you hate understeer like me, I didn't much care for it. The Goodyears remained consistent and communicated the understeer in both steering and sound. I never once had oversteer at the limit since the front tires always threw in the towel early.

In my last session I way overcooked the carousel and missed the apex by a couple of feet and the understeer took me out on the trackout curb too far and too early. I was too committed to lift and dropped a wheel in the dirt. Physics took over and I looped it in a lovely long slide and eventually backed into the grass on the inside. No damage and had a good chuckle.

This should be super easy to correct with a little more neg camber in the front. This week's investigation will be to try to find some track specs for the Emira and determine how much I want to add to dial out the understeer. I'm not going to touch the rears right now. They were totally planted.

I thought Track Mode turned ESC off. Am I wrong? When I did an HPDE in the Emira in May, I used Sport Mode because my instructor recommended I keep ESC on. I would love to put it in Track for the quicker throttle and better exhaust note. I also prefer the Track gauge layout.

I don’t have much track experience, but my experience mirrors yours. Very neutral, easy to drive, a bit of understeer at the limit. Can’t wait for my next event in September.

 

[Blackthought_]

I thought Track Mode turned ESC off. Am I wrong? When I did an HPDE in the Emira in May, I used Sport Mode because my instructor recommended I keep ESC on. I would love to put it in Track for the quicker throttle and better exhaust note. I also prefer the Track gauge layout.

I don’t have much track experience, but my experience mirrors yours. Very neutral, easy to drive, a bit of understeer at the limit. Can’t wait for my next event in September.

Track mode does not turn off ESC. When you enter track mode, in the bottom right corner of the screen you will see an option to turn off ESC completely. By holding the button down for 2 seconds it will turn off ESC completely

 

[KCDarkV]

Track mode does not turn off ESC. When you enter track mode, in the bottom right corner of the screen you will see an option to turn off ESC completely. By holding the button down for 2 seconds it will turn off ESC completely

Man I feel like a doofus for not recognizing that. The track is the only place I haven’t used Track Mode.

 

[KAR120C]

I thought Track Mode turned ESC off. Am I wrong? When I did an HPDE in the Emira in May, I used Sport Mode because my instructor recommended I keep ESC on. I would love to put it in Track for the quicker throttle and better exhaust note. I also prefer the Track gauge layout.

I don’t have much track experience, but my experience mirrors yours. Very neutral, easy to drive, a bit of understeer at the limit. Can’t wait for my next event in September.

Track mode turns the standard ESC off and introduces a new program thats called track ESC. I think it’s like my M2Cs MDM mode that only intervenes when it senses certain disaster. Great for the street but still too much for the track. It’s probably a little helpful at first, but as soon as you are driving hard enough to feel it kicking in you are probably ready to turn it off. On both the Emira and M2C that was only a few laps into the first session for me.

 

[cdn_alien]

My engine normally idles at about 750 RPM but lately, it's now up around 850 RPM and I"m not sure why. What is everyone else seeing for the "RPM idle speed"? Does this go lower over increased time/usage?

The idle speed is different between driving modes - tour, sport and track. Have you switched to using Sport mode more so than Tour lately?

 

[netsinah]

The idle speed is different between driving modes - tour, sport and track. Have you switched to using Sport mode more so than Tour lately?

I’m now only in sport mode, since surpassing the break-in mileage. The idle speed is now back at 750 in sport. I’ve yet to try track mode; still enjoying and getting used to sport.

 

[Kimmax]

I’m now only in sport mode, since surpassing the break-in mileage. The idle speed is now back at 750 in sport. I’ve yet to try track mode; still enjoying and getting used to sport.

Only Track has slightly raised idle RPMs but do note turning on the AC will increase idle RPMs to take the extra load

 

[Tomwa]

Yeah dropping gears is what I meant. Logically it makes sense to blip the throttle but I don’t see too many people talking about it

I'll raise my hand. It's happened many times. Everytime the light turns green as I'm slowing for a stop and I want to keep moving. Also has saved my butt a few times when a car/truck behind is clearly not going to be able to stop and I give it the beans to give us both a chance to avoid a collision. Hell, I've accelerated through a red light to avoid getting run over by a truck.

Fair enough, but I'd say that still represents a much smaller portion compared to other kinds of things that need to be done for evasive driving.

Also, when I refer to the inverse being true (meaning, I bet accidental throttle has caused more accidents than having throttle immediately available has prevented) I do mean when we talk across the whole population of drivers, which is of course where the 'standard' that you should keep down-selecting gears as you come to a stop.

I would say that I interchangeably do both, it really just depends on the situation. If I've got a long stretch of empty road to a light turning red, I'll drop out of gear and just coast up to the light / someone's rear bumper. But I don't do that regularly enough to say that I for sure do that.

 

[KCDarkV]

Track mode turns the standard ESC off and introduces a new program thats called track ESC. I think it’s like my M2Cs MDM mode that only intervenes when it senses certain disaster. Great for the street but still too much for the track. It’s probably a little helpful at first, but as soon as you are driving hard enough to feel it kicking in you are probably ready to turn it off. On both the Emira and M2C that was only a few laps into the first session for me.

I’m only 1.5 HPDEs deep so I plan to keep ESC on for the time being. Thanks for the info!

 

[Tomwa]

Letting off throttle and dropping rpms between gear changes on an upshift is just normal procedure you learn when learning to drive a manual. You roll back on the throttle smoothly as you let the clutch back out to prevent that shock and save the clutch.

Downshifting is a different animal since it requires an extra blip of the throttle to get the rev match and is not something everyone is experienced with.

I'll grant that standard teaching is going to tell you to remove your foot from throttle to do any clutch-in operation, and it should drop the RPM once you have begun clutch in. But, overall, if you are really shifting fast, this isn't that much different from downshifting without throttle blip. If you are shifting fast, acting as if you a doing something like drag racing, I would point to the fact that tire-chirp on gear shift indicates there is the shock to the drive line.

I would think of downshifting in a straight line as rev matching. You are already accelerating with foot on the throttle and while you downshift you give it more throttle to match the higher rev range you should be in for a smooth transition.

I don't know about you, but I don't flat-foot downshift, Most time when I'm realizing I need to downshift, I'm just cruising at highway speed, I definitely don't go full throttle before downshifting. So, yeah you definitely are not going to be matching engine speed and trans shaft speed at that point. I know a number of other cars do auto-rev matching for situations like this though.

 

[RPM]

Let's clarify downshifting vs. Engine braking

If you are coming to a stop and your car's brakes are powerful enough to lock up the wheels, then engine braking adds nothing. It is useful for heavy or loaded vehicles in the mountains to reduce constant braking and keep brakes cooler.

Does engine braking hurt the car? Everything you do to the car has some measure of wear on some component. I have destroyed synchos and gears in my race cars. It happens over time with extremely aggressive driving. I was not engine braking, but aggressively shifting/driving. Driving sanely on the street you are unlikely to hurt the car with light engine braking, it is just unnecessary to improve brake performance.

Downshifting because you are slowing down, but not stopping, is best done with a heel-toe technique to rev match. It limits driveline shock, and in racing conditions, keeps the car from being upset by the driveline jolt of a bad shift. You can spin a car with a bad shift entering a turn. On the street it is mostly just to be smooth and limit the wear to gears, snychros, and your clutch. You can sequentially hit every gear on the way down or skip right to the lower gear assuming you don't rush the shift and let the synchos catch up.