Shifting in V6 manual

[Dan C]

Yeah, maybe I have struggled more because I have only ever tried to heel toe on the street and just never get fully on the brakes. I assumed it was easier on the track to actually hit the throttle. I find my foot position may not be great. I typically try to use the side of my foot (not really heel) and always seem to miss (maybe I have smaller feet). I tend to plant my heel and just rotate my foot, and it sounds like others do that as well, but in order to hit the throttle I feel like I lose the brake.

For the blip I think I do tend to downshift when at a lower RPM. I sometimes have to do two blips because the first one isn't enough, and then the 2nd one is too much and I have to wait for the rpms to drop. Just can't seem to get the blip consistent.

Hey - I also want to mention that it took me a bit of time to get good at the heel and toe. What you are experiencing is not uncommon at all. I felt exactly the same when I started trying. It takes time and then it clicks.

But it does click. Once I went to Porsche experience center in LA, told the instructor I could do heel and toe, and he didn't believe me. Asked me to do it. I did it. He asked me to stop the car for him to check that the auto-blip wasn't on, because he couldn't believe I was doing it so smoothly after just hoping on the Cayman for the first time. So it is a skill that once you get becomes quite natural.

 

[Dan C]

Okay. Now here is real deal. Just watch this video of Ayrton Senna and you will be set:



You will immediately get the movement. Plus the REAL secret is wearing those driving loafers.

 

[erich]

I've watched a ton of videos trying to find something to make it click lol (everyone always makes it seem so easy), I think I just lack the practice. I probably don't try enough because I'm usually too worried about messing something up.

 

[KAR120C]

I've watched a ton of videos trying to find something to make it click lol (everyone always makes it seem so easy), I think I just lack the practice. I probably don't try enough because I'm usually too worried about messing something up.

It's just practice you'll get it after a while. When I was learning it, my fun car was a Miata and I had a manual Jeep Cherokee with an I4 for my daily. I used heel and toe with that crappy old Cherokee every day with every shift to get it right and it became so natural that I haven't really had to think much about it for 40 years except when changing cars.

I don't recommend driving an old Cherokee for lots of reasons, but if you can master it in an anti-performance vehicle you can do it anywhere.

 

[Tomwa]

If you buy a cheap car, like a Miata for practice. You can do some thing to speed along your progress. Vacuum leaks that would otherwise kill the car if you let it drop down into idle, means even at stop signs and things like that, you'll figure out ways to roll your foot to blip the throttle.

Also worn out clutches make for great teachers on being smooth and exact with your shifts and gear engagements. You can definitely get to a point with a miata where you can shift and not even be sure you put the clutch in.

 

[DPB]

I just wanted to add my “thank you” to all of the contributors on this thread. It has been very informative for those of us less experienced with the heel-and-toe technique. The positive, supportive guidance and suggestions once again shows why this forum and its members are so awesome.

 

[KCDarkV]

I need to check my initial foot position again. I think I tend to have my heel in front of the throttle and then rotate my foot to the brake. Which then means to roll back to the throttle is near impossible and there isn't any travel at the bottom of the throttle pedal if I used my heel.

That's how I drive in normal driving, but I lift my heel and keep my foot floating when I am braking aggressively with the intention to heel-toe.

 

[erich]

That's how I drive in normal driving, but I lift my heel and keep my foot floating when I am braking aggressively with the intention to heel-toe.

I tried to play around with that in the past, thinking, "oh maybe I shouldn't have my heel planted, maybe that's why it feels more difficult". But then it was more difficult to be consistent on moderate braking, so I assumed that all the racing videos when they are fully on make it seem easier than heel toe with partial braking.

 

[erich]

I just wanted to add my “thank you” to all of the contributors on this thread. It has been very informative for those of us less experienced with the heel-and-toe technique. The positive, supportive guidance and suggestions once again shows why this forum and its members are so awesome.

I will second this, appreciate everyone's comments and advice. I've been driving manuals for decades but never really bothered with any of these techniques and was a bit embarrassed about asking.

 

[seriously]

I tried to play around with that in the past, thinking, "oh maybe I shouldn't have my heel planted, maybe that's why it feels more difficult". But then it was more difficult to be consistent on moderate braking, so I assumed that all the racing videos when they are fully on make it seem easier than heel toe with partial braking.

I do both like KC. Most driving keep the heel down because it allows me to be most consistent with my foot. However hard braking where I know I will heel toe is when I lift my heel to give me more room to blip the throttle then out the heel back down.

This is the magic of driving manual. When you are in a rhythm and driving smoothly it almost feels like you are dancing and with all 4 limbs engaged you feel more like a pilot.

 

[Tomwa]

I think it's pretty natural to lift your heel when you are hard braking in general. Also, if you are doing any kind of racing full throttle is typically on the ball of your foot, so you aren't likely to be heel down then either.

Very true seriously. It's a lot of motion and action. I remember pretty early on in my manual driving juggling gear shifts, steering, holding a drink, or biting some food. Not ideal, but sometimes you lift a knee to hold the wheel so you have a hand free to grab the
gear.

 

[shin73]

Anyone see when pulling down from 3rd to neutral, the vertical movement of the stick is strong and tends to go past neutral and partially into 4th? It’s still in neutral but goes to the point where I can’t wiggle the stick left and right, super annoying when trying to downshift into 2nd just to find I need to move the lever up a bit to get it to move horizontally again.

Only got 500 kms on the clock, maybe symptom will resolve as the break in progresses, but was wondering if anyone else experienced the same.

 

[seriously]

I think it's pretty natural to lift your heel when you are hard braking in general. Also, if you are doing any kind of racing full throttle is typically on the ball of your foot, so you aren't likely to be heel down then either.

Very true seriously. It's a lot of motion and action. I remember pretty early on in my manual driving juggling gear shifts, steering, holding a drink, or biting some food. Not ideal, but sometimes you lift a knee to hold the wheel so you have a hand free to grab the
gear.

I’m actually quite amused with myself when holding something in my hand and switch hands to shift or steer and keep it all going. Only guys who drive stick know the fun going on.

 

[RyanGphoto]

When you push the clutch pedal to downshift, you disconnect the engine from the rolling wheels. The rolling wheels are getting slower as you brake, but the engine RPMs also slow down, and at a different rate than the wheels. This is bad not only because the rates are different, but also because, at the ratio of lower gear you're shifting, the engine should actually be spinning faster.

Hey Chatman:

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation.. I do appreciate it. I am glad I started this thread and others can benefit from it. That's what its all about.. I can't for the life of me get heel to toe, but now I have a much better understanding..

I do have another question. You mentioned when fully pressed in the clutch is disengaged from the engine.... so just curious.. When I am coming to a light can I just push the clutch all the way down and keep it there to "coast" to the light or stop as it were? Is that bad practice?

I have started doing this with advice from here

In whatever gear... hitting brake.. Clutch all the way down... shift to neutral.. release clutch.. then use the brake to come to a stop.. If I have to shift back into gear, I do whatever the closest gear is to the speed I am going (I usually try and pick the higher gear to make sure I am ok to not "lurch" the car (as you described in your post)..

Does that make sense? Good practice?

Thanks again everyone for contributing.. I do appreciate the knowledge.. I would love to go get lessons from somewhere to become a better driver, just no idea where to start or go.

Ryan G

 

[seriously]

Hey Chatman:

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation.. I do appreciate it. I am glad I started this thread and others can benefit from it. That's what its all about.. I can't for the life of me get heel to toe, but now I have a much better understanding..

I do have another question. You mentioned when fully pressed in the clutch is disengaged from the engine.... so just curious.. When I am coming to a light can I just push the clutch all the way down and keep it there to "coast" to the light or stop as it were? Is that bad practice?

I have started doing this with advice from here

In whatever gear... hitting brake.. Clutch all the way down... shift to neutral.. release clutch.. then use the brake to come to a stop.. If I have to shift back into gear, I do whatever the closest gear is to the speed I am going (I usually try and pick the higher gear to make sure I am ok to not "lurch" the car (as you described in your post)..

Does that make sense? Good practice?

Thanks again everyone for contributing.. I do appreciate the knowledge.. I would love to go get lessons from somewhere to become a better driver, just no idea where to start or go.

Ryan G

You can definitely do this. However I do the opposite. I keep the car in gear until it is nearly stopped, then clutch to neutral. If you coast a lot you will use more brakes than you need to. Also generally speaking it’s better to avoid light braking often which is what you’ll be doing if you coast all the time as a practice. Light braking can lead to squeaking.

Another example when going down a steep hill I will brake intermittently with more force to slow the car down and then use the engine brake to coast down. If you were using neutral, you’d be using a lot of brake and you might be tempted to ride your brakes which is not the best.

 

[Nova]

There is one practical application of double clutching to downshift to first:

When you have the car almost stopped (let’s say <3mph) and you realize you need to move. It is too slow for second. However, with the car still slightly moving, first gear is difficult to put in.

Blipping the throttle on neutral and then pressing the clutch in, allows an easy shift into first without stopping the car. Makes sense?

In this situation, I find that slightly pulling back the shift lever against the 2nd gear gate and then going forward again will usually go into 1st. A bit quicker than double clutching.

 

[Nova]

LOL so now I know I'm not the only crazy one. In 1973 I drove from southern California to Salt Lake City in my second Spitfire, which was a 1968, to visit a girl I had met in southern California. She had gone up there to go to school. It was unbelievably risky, but I was young and confident then and did it anyways. This was during the so-called gas crisis, and gas availability was sketchy. I was lucky to make it. It turned out there was only one gas station open between Las Vegas and Salt Lake, and that was at St. George Utah. I remember arriving at the station in St. George in the middle of the night, and there was a line of cars in both directions waiting to get gas. A lot of people had parked their cars and turned them off, and gotten out and were walking around talking to each other. I did the same, going to the people coming down from upstate, only to find out they had come down from Salt Lake and this was the first station they had found that was open. They weren't happy when I told them there wasn't anything open between there and Vegas. Those were the days when American cars were big and heavy, and guzzled gas. I had tuned my car and it actually got over 30 mpg on the highway, which back then was unheard of.

It took awhile to get gas, and I was worried the station would run out, which was something that wasn't unusual at that time due to gas restrictions. It was also expensive if I remember correctly. Fortunately my car only needed 10 gallons to fill up, and I was on my way. It was heavy overcast the whole way up, so there was NO light anywhere except where my headlights shown, and headlights in those days were not very bright. There were no radio stations available either, so I'm driving in total darkness for hours, no radio. I saw nothing for hours; no cars, no lights, nothing. It was like being in the Twilight Zone. I was doing about 65 if I recall, and the shift lever would buzz at that speed. I took one of my shoes off, and hung it over the shift knob to stop the buzzing lol. By the time I got to Salt Lake, it was freezing cold and I had been driving for about 16 hours.

This girl had told me before I left, that she was staying at her grandparents farm, however when I got there, that turned out not to be true, and she was actually staying in a dorm at BYU with several other girls. I was so exhausted I fell asleep on the floor, hoping no one would care (they didn't). It also snowed that day, so when I wake up, all I can see of my car is just the top half. I had to dig it out to get into it, and needless to say it was like a freezer inside. I had worn driving gloves on the way up, and when I tried to put them on they cracked and broke; they were frozen stiff. Same with my sunglasses which were sitting on the dashboard. When I tried to open them, they broke, so I'm holding a freezing steering wheel and squinting from sun glare on the snow when I go to leave to come home.

To make a long story short, by the time I drove home, I'm sliding around on tires that weren't the best to begin with, and certainly not snow tires, trying to get to the highway. Looking back I can't believe I did that, and made it!

Bravo! Great story telling. I happen to be coaching kids on writing college essays (tis the season) and this is a *perfectly* written story to illustrate the type of essay they should be writing about themselves.

 

[Nova]

Hey Chatman:

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation.. I do appreciate it. I am glad I started this thread and others can benefit from it. That's what its all about.. I can't for the life of me get heel to toe, but now I have a much better understanding..

I do have another question. You mentioned when fully pressed in the clutch is disengaged from the engine.... so just curious.. When I am coming to a light can I just push the clutch all the way down and keep it there to "coast" to the light or stop as it were? Is that bad practice?

I have started doing this with advice from here

In whatever gear... hitting brake.. Clutch all the way down... shift to neutral.. release clutch.. then use the brake to come to a stop.. If I have to shift back into gear, I do whatever the closest gear is to the speed I am going (I usually try and pick the higher gear to make sure I am ok to not "lurch" the car (as you described in your post)..

Does that make sense? Good practice?

Thanks again everyone for contributing.. I do appreciate the knowledge.. I would love to go get lessons from somewhere to become a better driver, just no idea where to start or go.

Ryan G

This is one of those things that can ignite an Internet argument. Some purists will say you need to be in gear all the time except when at a stop light. The idea is that if a situation comes up where you need throttle input, you'll already be in gear. Following this recommendation requires downshifting all the way to a stop, which can be tiresome and uncomfortable.

In general every day traffic, I will generally downshift to third but not to 2nd or 1st. For the 20-5mph part, I clutch in, put it in second gear, but don't declutch. Below 5mph and coming to a full stop, I put it in neutral and declutch. This way, I'm ready to engage 2nd gear if some situation comes up. I am sure this angers someone somewhere. I don't care, it works for me.

I do downshift into 2nd when making a turn without stopping. I do heel-toe on that downshift and the noise the engine makes is lovely.

 

[Eagle7]

I do all kinds of (probably) strange things when shifting. Since I'm a momentum driver, sometimes when approaching a corner where I might need some brakes, I'll rev-match and down-shift first without touching the brakes, then afterwards start feathering the brakes into and through the corner(s). My goal is to keep the car balanced and the momentum up as much as possible, which is the exact opposite of what some people like which is to hang out the tail and slide around. I also usually start feathering the throttle as I'm crossing the apex to try and gain as much exit speed as I can.

it takes longer to describe than actually do it. In practice, it's just a technique of smooth transitions into, through and out of corners.

 

[seriously]

I do all kinds of (probably) strange things when shifting. Since I'm a momentum driver, sometimes when approaching a corner where I might need some brakes, I'll rev-match and down-shift first without touching the brakes, then afterwards start feathering the brakes into and through the corner(s). My goal is to keep the car balanced and the momentum up as much as possible, which is the exact opposite of what some people like which is to hang out the tail and slide around. I also usually start feathering the throttle as I'm crossing the apex to try and gain as much exit speed as I can.

it takes longer to describe than actually do it. In practice, it's just a technique of smooth transitions into, through and out of corners.

Do you Jab the throttle on corner exit like senna? I have never seen anyone do that and I’ve never tried it. But it’s an interesting concept of finding the edge of grip with throttle jabs before full throttle out of a corner.