Suspension: Touring and Sports options

[Magicman]

Not true. Read or watch any of the interviews with Gavan Kershaw. Lotus pioneered the development of active suspension in F1 but don’t believe the technology is the best solution for a road-going sportscar.

You'd have thought with road conditions varying way more than track that adaptive systems would be more important on the road not less.
Its hard to question lotus when it comes to suspension but it doesn't make sense to me, surely they could apply their magic to adaptive

 

[emiraspain]

You'd have thought with road conditions varying way more than track that adaptive systems would be more important on the road not less.
Its hard to question lotus when it comes to suspension but it doesn't make sense to me, surely they could apply their magic to adaptive

Is it hard to question them, in this day and age?
I know they have a good reputation, but other companies have caught up in the 15 odd years that Lotus has not developed a new car. Do we not think Porsche and others have not spent more money developing their steering and suspension than the whole cost of the Lotus factory? Mclaren have taken most of Lotus's engineers in the last 10 years and some then left and went to start Zenos too didn't they?
I dont think there is this mystery or magic anymore, things that ONLY a Lotus can do. Lotus would like us to think that, but most of us who have driven all breads of cars and most journalists who have driven the Emira have criticisms of the handling. Not many are saying its so much better than its competitors...... Even the steering, Harry delights driving the porsche AND the mclaren, in fact I would say he prefers the mclaren over everything including the Lotus in terms of steering.
Dont forget you have the down side of a stiff rack at low speeds, something you dont have with other cars.... Now I like a firm rack as much as the next man, but there are limits... you need some softness also.... Maybe lost on some..
It is what it is, but more choice is not always a good thing.....

 

[Forlorn]

yes I errrrr with you in this case, they dont mention cost, but its a big underlying factor for sure, as it is with every decision taken on the Emira, more so than with a Porsche let's say.
As I mentioned previously, a Toyota employee at my track day showed me several auxiliary elements around the engine that had been changed from Toyota provided, to Geely provided, and we can only assume this is cost related where I personally would prefer Toyota parts to Geely.
Maybe there is a 0.5% difference in handling on a track having the "perfect" set up, instead of a button press adjustable one, but for the person that is going to the track enough to really appreciate this, ie 0.5% of the customer base, they are probably adjusting their own direct suspension / camber etc settings anyway, so again, I totally disagree with making two identical cars, one being a bit stiffer than the other, a waste of time and effort and added confusion IMO.
The porsche sales model is so much better known and most customers of the EMIRA have been with porsche or certainly are familiar with the porsche PASM, base model and S set up, hence not using the same does add confusion, again for most Emira customers. I find it a decision I didn't want to take and I still dont know which way was best, but I figure for resale, sports is better just as a track pack on a Yaris was for value. Also, clearly its a sports car, well pretty clear, if I wanted a more GT type car, there are other options for that out there.

I agree totally with this analysis and have posted previously on this subject. I too don’t agree with offering these two options, it’s confused most people and is still questionable.

McLaren offer adaptive damping on their range, but also offer a softer version of their sport series 570GT for people who take longer touring drives. Which added features for luggage capacity and sound proofing.

I too think it’s a cost issue. My Evora400 in 2017 cost £80k but that cost relating to 2022 using Bank of England allowance for current prices is nearer to £100k. So I guess each car mark up for Lotus is the same for profit margin- their cost base must have been reduced somehow or it’s a loss leader. Yes there will be additional profit on volume as Evora didn’t sell well. So Chinese parts maybe adding to this price reduction. Who knows apart from the accountants.
But IMHO they should have offered a single suspension option to remove confusion and brought out different model later, as I have espoused on earlier threads.

 

[Mistral]

You'd have thought with road conditions varying way more than track that adaptive systems would be more important on the road not less.
Its hard to question lotus when it comes to suspension but it doesn't make sense to me, surely they could apply their magic to adaptive

As @TomE said, active was pioneered in F1 by Lotus, in 1983. If I recall correctly, Mansell had it when we went to Long Beach that year and it was very difficult to drive because there was no feel, as opposed to the normal coil springs and shock absorbers. By 1992, Williams had developed the concept to a point where there was sufficient feel, for some drivers at least, Mansell more so than Patrese. Being able to drive active on track where you know where the road goes is one thing, but doing it on the roads where you don't, is another thing altogether. I can imagine a number of cars going through the hedges, just as they did with the S1 Elise, but for different reasons!

 

[SPoivre]

I think it's been clear that Lotus has said there isn't a big difference between the Sport and Touring suspension. The Lotus rep/engineer I spoke to said I might not even notice the difference on the roads around me. ( and suggested I get the sport if I was on the fence.) Maybe they were telling the truth.

 

[TomE]

The porsche sales model is so much better known and most customers of the EMIRA have been with porsche or certainly are familiar with the porsche PASM, base model and S set up, hence not using the same does add confusion, again for most Emira customers. I find it a decision I didn't want to take and I still dont know which way was best, but I figure for resale, sports is better just as a track pack on a Yaris was for value. Also, clearly its a sports car, well pretty clear, if I wanted a more GT type car, there are other options for that out there.

You have been brainwashed by Porsche into thinking Sports means "better" and hence they can charge you more

Lotus don't have to copy the Porsche approach and variant/pricing structures, they can have their own approach to suspension and how it's priced. On the FE there is no price difference and I suspect on the Base Edition the difference will only be influenced by having to choose Drivers Pack in order to have the Sports suspension option.

Both options use springs and dampers from the same manufacturers with slightly different ratings, so there's no reason for there to be a cost or price difference. Lotus has said the different setups will suit different circumstances, neither is right or wrong and so just follow their guidance. Last time I checked it was about 60/40 Touring/Sports for UK V6 FE orders.

 

[TomE]

You'd have thought with road conditions varying way more than track that adaptive systems would be more important on the road not less.
Its hard to question lotus when it comes to suspension but it doesn't make sense to me, surely they could apply their magic to adaptive

Lotus continue to research adaptive and other suspension options. Gavan has said that current adaptive components still don't enable them to build a better setup for a Lotus sportscar, hence why they stick with double wishbone and conventional spring and damper. You can cater for a lot of different requirements through the design of wishbone sizes and angles, damper valving, spring rates, end stops, bushing etc.

 

[emiraspain]

You have been brainwashed by Porsche into thinking Sports means "better" and hence they can charge you more

Lotus don't have to copy the Porsche approach and variant/pricing structures, they can have their own approach to suspension and how it's priced. On the FE there is no price difference and I suspect on the Base Edition the difference will only be influenced by having to choose Drivers Pack in order to have the Sports suspension option.

Both options use springs and dampers from the same manufacturers with slightly different ratings, so there's no reason for there to be a cost or price difference. Lotus has said the different setups will suit different circumstances, neither is right or wrong and so just follow their guidance. Last time I checked it was about 60/40 Touring/Sports for UK V6 FE orders.

maybe.... but they charge more as there is more power and then there is that superiority feeling, you have the "S" and Im all over being superior... haha. The turbo on the S is technically quite different to the base and perhaps the breaks are better too, cant recall now, I didnt like the car, good as it was.

 

[Mistral]

maybe.... but they charge more as there is more power and then there is that superiority feeling, you have the "S" and Im all over being superior... haha. The turbo on the S is technically quite different to the base and perhaps the breaks are better too, cant recall now, I didnt like the car, good as it was.

I know it's Saturday evening but you've obviously been at the Rioja.

More power, superiority. In a Porsche? Breaks? (Spelling? Tut tut) To your credit, at least you didn't like it!

 

[emiraspain]

I know it's Saturday evening but you've obviously been at the Rioja.

More power, superiority. In a Porsche? Breaks? (Spelling? Tut tut) To your credit, at least you didn't like it!

haha... well...
breaks...oh dear....dementia is settling in early...lets put the brakes on that!

 

[VicVenlo]

Didn't scroll through all the 21 pages of this thread, so maybe already discussed: did I notice that the ride height is different between both suspension options? I seem to have noticed the Emira with sport suspension sitting slightly lower (and optically nicer)?

 

[Cachaco131]

Didn't scroll through all the 21 pages of this thread, so maybe already discussed: did I notice that the ride height is different between both suspension options? I seem to have noticed the Emira with sport suspension sitting slightly lower (and optically nicer)?

Oh no...you don't know what you've started.

 

[ADC]

Didn't scroll through all the 21 pages of this thread, so maybe already discussed: did I notice that the ride height is different between both suspension options? I seem to have noticed the Emira with sport suspension sitting slightly lower (and optically nicer)?

get 'im lads!! pitchforks at the ready!!

The TLDR version is: no official height difference, probably cars at different stages of settling on their springs. or transport pucks left in place. or lizard men controlling the governments of the world to make us drive around in jacked up SUVs.

 

[kitkat]

Didn't scroll through all the 21 pages of this thread, so maybe already discussed: did I notice that the ride height is different between both suspension options? I seem to have noticed the Emira with sport suspension sitting slightly lower (and optically nicer)?

This angers the touring mob.

 

[VicVenlo]

This angers the touring mob.

get 'im lads!! pitchforks at the ready!!

The TLDR version is: no official height difference, probably cars at different stages of settling on their springs. or transport pucks left in place. or lizard men controlling the governments of the world to make us drive around in jacked up SUVs.

I'm reading..I'm reading!!!... anywayzzz: happy to hear, since I will go for Touring. But I remember seeing a clear difference in the 2 cars featured in Harry's Garage first test drive... But perhaps I will put bags of cement on the passenger side and in the booth, like in the old days in the front of the VW Beetle....

 

[kitkat]

I'm reading..I'm reading!!!... anywayzzz: happy to hear, since I will go for Touring. But I remember seeing a clear difference in the 2 cars featured in Harry's Garage first test drive... But perhaps I will put bags of cement on the passenger side and in the booth, like in the old days in the front of the VW Beetle....

Oh you’re on team touring? Enjoy your blimp.

 

[Porter]

You'd have thought with road conditions varying way more than track that adaptive systems would be more important on the road not less.
Its hard to question lotus when it comes to suspension but it doesn't make sense to me, surely they could apply their magic to adaptive

We covered this sort of ad nauseum in another thread... but what it boils down to is that the Emira is built to achieve a very high level of real-world performance at a very constrained bill-of-materials cost.

In terms of efficacy for the job of chassis control and handling, the fundamental valving quality of the damper itself means WAY more to real-world performance than any other feature or criteria. A passive damper can achieve objectively good results that target a specific performance goal within a constrained budget, compared to an adaptive damper built to a comparable price range. The adaptive damper must sacrifice valving quality (being both the most expensive and the most price-variable component) in order to hit a similar cost target, and the shift in quality in the valving results in performance decrease that far outstrips any potential "advantage" of the changed compression/rebound damping values via the adaptive high/low setting. Sure, the adaptive damper can make it softer over bumps in the car park while still being "stiff" for the track, but you will give away a significant part of the car's handling and lateral grip potential at speed in order to do so, cost being equal.

It's possible to build an objectively high quality adaptive damper that performs admirably at both ends of the performance envelope, but it is super expensive. Likely approaching $1000 a corner for the damper, for a mass production item that equals the performance of a good passive damper like the units on the Emira, which I suspect cost less than half that. And if you go high-end, you can expect a multiple of those figures for a genuinely motorsport-grade adaptive damper, often $2k to $5k a corner (or higher) depending on the design goals. There is no free lunch.

 

[kitkat]

We covered this sort of ad nauseum in another thread... but what it boils down to is that the Emira is built to achieve a very high level of real-world performance at a very constrained bill-of-materials cost.

In terms of efficacy for the job of chassis control and handling, the fundamental valving quality of the damper itself means WAY more to real-world performance than any other feature or criteria. A passive damper can achieve objectively good results that target a specific performance goal within a constrained budget, compared to an adaptive damper built to a comparable price range. The adaptive damper must sacrifice valving quality (being both the most expensive and the most price-variable component) in order to hit a similar cost target, and the shift in quality in the valving results in performance decrease that far outstrips any potential "advantage" of the changed compression/rebound damping values via the adaptive high/low setting. Sure, the adaptive damper can make it softer over bumps in the car park while still being "stiff" for the track, but you will give away a significant part of the car's handling and lateral grip potential at speed in order to do so, cost being equal.

It's possible to build an objectively high quality adaptive damper that performs admirably at both ends of the performance envelope, but it is super expensive. Likely approaching $1000 a corner for the damper, for a mass production item that equals the performance of a good passive damper like the units on the Emira, which I suspect cost less than half that. And if you go high-end, you can expect a multiple of those figures for a genuinely motorsport-grade adaptive damper, often $2k to $5k a corner (or higher) depending on the design goals. There is no free lunch.

Another component to this balance of performance, flexibility, and price -- is longevity. Even if you spend $10K for a set of 3 way dampers with low hysteresis and all the bells and whistles -- those low hysteresis performance dampers do so by using the lowest possible drag seals for the valve which decreases maintenance interval time/use.

 

[Jonhklee]

simple, supple, sexy, speed…… soon.

The 5s of Lotus

 

[Pugwash]

I have now been able to drive both Sports and Touring suspension cars on UK B roads. For what it’s worth I agree with Harry Metcalfe.