Would you change from V6 to I4 if I4 had 400HP?

[xen]

And as he also says, a big factor in that is emissions. The V6 gets priced out of the running in many markets.

So, rather than power equalisation, another interesting hypothetical question is “if the V6 and i4 had the same emissions (and hence taxes) which would you buy?”

Not really the point of the thread though. I’d guess the three biggest markets - China, UK, US. In two of these the costs are comparable and I still believe with equal power the i4 would be the more popular car.

For me I’d choose the quicker, lighter, similar handling, yet cheaper car.

 

[CraigO]

I love the fact that we have the choice of V6 or I4. I fully respect all those going V6 Auto/Manual and no doubt the car will be amazing and suit the buying decision we each make.
For me, it was always going to be the I4. Its modern, quite light, and especially as it comes with the DCT.
I'm sure whatever each person goes for, they will love their Emira. A stunning car, and seemingly very well received by reviewers.

 

[Tonyshepp]

As reported by several journalists over the last several years, auto manufacturers offer manuals but the trend has been that they don't get ordered. People opt for the automatic so in a market with a 400HP I4 DCT vs a V6 Auto, the DCT would probably win out because the only remaining question would be exhaust, but again, how important is exhaust to the new Lotus customers.

Here is a video with Doug DeMuro talking about Ferraris and manuals. People don't want them. Skip to 13:35. I find this hard to believe but I guess this is another data point that shows enthusiasts may participate in forums more and they want manuals but we are very much in the minority. I am not saying if you want an Auto you are not an enthusiast! I love them both!

But you'll hear me in the peaks before you see me in my V6

 

[MickOpalak]

The only thing that would make me choose the I4 over the V6 would be a lot more power. If they were both rated at 400hp the I4 would be a lot more stressed than the V6, turbo laggy compared to the lag-free supercharger, and a lot more expensive to repair in the case of mechanical issues.

 

[ADC]

The only thing that would make me choose the I4 over the V6 would be a lot more power. If they were both rated at 400hp the I4 would be a lot more stressed than the V6, turbo laggy compared to the lag-free supercharger, and a lot more expensive to repair in the case of mechanical issues.

I'll give you the last point, but I'm not sure you can assert the first two with total confidence... the M139 is built like a brick outhouse, and has a twin-scroll turbo specifically to avoid lag.

 

[MickOpalak]

I'll give you the last point, but I'm not sure you can assert the first two with total confidence... the M139 is built like a brick outhouse, and has a twin-scroll turbo specifically to avoid lag.

My first point is simple physics. Getting 400hp out of 2 liters puts a lot more stress on the internals than 400hp out of 3.5 liters.

And while the turbo'd M139 may have little lag, a supercharger has zero lag.

 

[LotusB]

Look at the poll. That says otherwise in a big way. Even if the power was the same, I'd still get the V6 with the manual because I like the sound of the V6 and I want a manual.

The poll has a major selection and confirmation bias. People tend to justify their choices, especially given that the alternative isn't even an option, it's hypothetical.

If I could get the V6 w/DCT I'd take that in a heart beat, but it's not an option. Would definitely consider the AMG w/DCT and over 400hp over the V6 manual I'll be getting. At least my wife could drive it... once

One of the reasons for the "success" of Emira isn't just the looks, but the announced introductory price-point. That's achievable with the AMG engine option only. Even in current configuration of 360hp Lotus is already marketing a faster 0-60. Can you imagine how much that'll drop once they unleash 400 (or more) horsies and equivalent torque?

Performance sells performance cars. Look at Porsche. They'll charge you an $10k for an extra 10-horsepower and call it the next model up. Heck, Tesla does the same with a Dual Motor, Dual Motor w/Acceleration Boost and Performance model. Same hardware, same car, but the distinction is made to justify a higher price (bigger profit margins). Lotus doesn't want to upstage the V6, but they will eventually. They can't do it now because the I4 isn't even available for testing much less anywhere near ready for homologation.

I think we'll see many I4's on the road... if the car were available for order/delivery at the same time, I contend we'd see a different distribution. I'd certainly have a hard time making a decision and I know of at least a few people who wanted the AMG but are going with V6 because it's available sooner.

 

[ADC]

My first point is simple physics. Getting 400hp out of 2 liters puts a lot more stress on the internals than 400hp out of 3.5 liters.

And while the turbo'd M139 may have little lag, a supercharger has zero lag.

Yes, I get how physics works Maybe I'm misreading you, but you seemed to be implying that "stressed" is synonymous with "close to failure"... which I think is untrue in this case. And I'd be willing to wager the internals of a M139 are up for more punishment than the non-modified 2GR-FSE.

Out of interest, have you managed to have a drive of the AMG-engined Emira yet (which seems within the realms of possibility, based on your signature)? I was definitely under the impression that it has been tuned for quite linear and immediate delivery... sure, not boosting in lockstep with RPM like a roots supercharger, but certainly not what you'd deride as "laggy".

 

[LotusB]

Yes, I get how physics works Maybe I'm misreading you, but you seemed to be implying that "stressed" is synonymous with "close to failure"... which I think is untrue in this case. And I'd be willing to wager the internals of a M139 are up for a more punishment than the non-modified 2GR-FSE.

Out of interest, have you managed to have a drive of the AMG-engined Emira yet (which seems within the realms of possibility, based on your signature)? I was definitely under the impression that it has been tuned for quite linear delivery... sure, not boosting in lockstep with RPM like a roots supercharger, but certainly not what you'd deride as "laggy".

Twin-scroll, VNT, sequential, you name it... none of it gets rid of turbo lag. The real question is what kind of "lag" and how does it impact the driver? For day-to-day it might be an annoyance to some and a thrill (as the torque builds) to others. It's really only a "problem/danger" at the limit, however, DCT is a huge help here as it helps maintain load, reducing transitions and thus unsettling the car.

That's not to say that it can't happen... for example... going too fast through a sweeper one might depress the pedal a bit much, reducing load which has a snowball effect in reducing exhaust gas velocity, which reduces plenum pressure, etc etc... weight transfers forward, rear tires lose traction... you get the point.

The rest is a reply to @MickOpalak
Agree about "stressed" however. The V6 is near its limit... the M139 isn't. The 2GR-FE was originally built for the Camry and made ~270hp. The supercharging/tuning takes the engine well past its designed point, thus increasing stress. For example, according to JUBU Performance, who have tons of experience tuning the engine both for street cars and race cars:

"No more engine damages by "breaking" the piston webs between the 1st and 2nd piston ring (possible with original pistons at power outputs higher than 430 hp)"
Source: https://www.jubu-performance.com/en/tuning/part-jubu_exige__evora__3eleven_500_leistungskit-1926

I don't know what the limit of the M139 engine is, but it's a fully built forged-internals engine from the factory and these companies over-engineer (it's why Lotus gets ~400hp out of the V6 reliably). The engine takes more abuse in the form of boost pressure, but it's built to handle it and more. There are also ways of improving performance via efficiency rather than boost pressure.

P.S. A few mods within the V6 and it'll easily handle more power than the I4... so physics still applies, no replacement for displacement, I'm only talking about their 'state' out of the box.

 

[Eagle7]

The Emira is going to sell simply because of its looks, pure and simple. People are going to think it's a supercar at blue collar prices. However, how many of those people who would be interested in an Emira, would be buying a supercar if they could afford it? What kind of customer is going to be seriously considering an Emira?

There's no question Lotus will sell more i4 Emira's than the V6 for two reasons; one price, and two because they'll be able to produce them for four years longer than the V6.

What's going to be interesting is to see what effect sound has on the buying decision of those other than forum enthusiasts. If horsepower was equal between the i4 and V6, would the sound of the V6 and its linear acceleration be enough to pull people away from the i4? We'll have to wait and see.

Will people other than forum enthusiasts be interested in an Emira for it's driving features, or just because they want to drive around in something that looks like this? For the latter, the i4's price point will make it the popular choice. For the former... it's hard to say. Based on forum results, the V6 with manual has a strong appeal. For people wanting a track car, the i4 will probably be the choice because of its potential for performance gain, but for people who aren't going to the track, the sound of the V6 may be enough to pull them away from the i4.

 

[TomE]

Not really the point of the thread though. I’d guess the three biggest markets - China, UK, US. In two of these the costs are comparable and I still believe with equal power the i4 would be the more popular car.

For me I’d choose the quicker, lighter, similar handling, yet cheaper car.

You make a comparison, I make a related comparison. That's how discussions happen. Not being able to sell one variant at all in China and it being largely uneconomic across most of Europe is a big factor in needing the i4. Yes, the emissions tax differences in US and UK are smaller, but Lotus couldn't just rely on those two markets.

Clearly it hasn't been easy to get the i4 variant developed, otherwise Lotus would be starting deliveries of the i4 and V6 at the same time. What if the power was the same and the purchase price was identical - the Toyota must be a cheaper unit to source surely? I think it would be a pretty even split in that case.

It's great to have the choice. For me I'd chose the similarly quick (in the real world), similar handling, manual shifting, aurally more satisfying one, despite the modest extra purchase price.

 

[TomE]

Lotus doesn't want to upstage the V6, but they will eventually. They can't do it now because the I4 isn't even available for testing much less anywhere near ready for homologation.

They've been running i4 mules and prototypes for over 2 years. There were numerous validation cars being built and driving around the site when I visited Hethel in January. Development and approvals on the i4 are running about 3-4 months after the equivalent V6 plans. The extra time had been planned in by Lotus because the i4 needed more development work than the already-familiar V6.

 

[Singularity]

Twin-scroll, VNT, sequential, you name it... none of it gets rid of turbo lag. The real question is what kind of "lag" and how does it impact the driver? For day-to-day it might be an annoyance to some and a thrill (as the torque builds) to others. It's really only a "problem/danger" at the limit, however, DCT is a huge help here as it helps maintain load, reducing transitions and thus unsettling the car.

That's not to say that it can't happen... for example... going too fast through a sweeper one might depress the pedal a bit much, reducing load which has a snowball effect in reducing exhaust gas velocity, which reduces plenum pressure, etc etc... weight transfers forward, rear tires lose traction... you get the point.

The rest is a reply to @MickOpalak
Agree about "stressed" however. The V6 is near its limit... the M139 isn't. The 2GR-FE was originally built for the Camry and made ~270hp. The supercharging/tuning takes the engine well past its designed point, thus increasing stress. For example, according to JUBU Performance, who have tons of experience tuning the engine both for street cars and race cars:

"No more engine damages by "breaking" the piston webs between the 1st and 2nd piston ring (possible with original pistons at power outputs higher than 430 hp)"
Source: https://www.jubu-performance.com/en/tuning/part-jubu_exige__evora__3eleven_500_leistungskit-1926

I don't know what the limit of the M139 engine is, but it's a fully built forged-internals engine from the factory and these companies over-engineer (it's why Lotus gets ~400hp out of the V6 reliably). The engine takes more abuse in the form of boost pressure, but it's built to handle it and more. There are also ways of improving performance via efficiency rather than boost pressure.

P.S. A few mods within the V6 and it'll easily handle more power than the I4... so physics still applies, no replacement for displacement, I'm only talking about their 'state' out of the box.

Just on the topic of the limit for the M139 I don’t know what it could go to either. However, while the press quoted figures vary slightly, most sources suggest AMG will be deploying it in a 440hp state of tune in the upcoming C63. Quite impressive specific output for a production 2.0l.

 

[ADC]

Just on the topic of the limit for the M139 I don’t know what it could go to either. However, while the press quoted figures vary slightly, most sources suggest AMG will be deploying it in a 440hp state of tune in the upcoming C63. Quite impressive specific output for a production 2.0l.

The limit for the M139 is shockingly high, if we're talking about its strength / reliability. Take what these nutjobs achieved (a couple of years ago) with an ECU tune and some bolt-ons for example (emphasis mine):

Renntech 592-HP Tune for Mercedes-AMG A45 - 600 HP AMG Hot Hatch (roadandtrack.com)
"This number is especially surprising given the engine was already the most powerful production four-cylinder ever, with 416 horses in its most potent factory trim. To squeeze an extra 176 without changing any internals is a wild feat"

Now I'm not thumbing my nose at the V6 here, but what I am saying is that I reckon that a 400 - 450 bhp state of tune barely moves the needle in terms of risk on the i4. Cooling things effectively with the mid-engine layout has been noted as part of the story why big numbers would be harder in the Emira, but ultimately I personally think the detune was more about market segmentation for now. Which is a tiny bit of a disappointment, but one that I'll get over

 

[Pegasi]

Now I'm not thumbing my nose at the V6 here, but what I am saying is that I reckon that a 400 - 450 bhp state of tune barely moves the needle in terms of risk on the i4. Cooling things effectively with the mid-engine layout has been noted as part of the story why big numbers would be harder in the Emira, but ultimately I personally think the detune was more about market segmentation for now. Which is a tiny bit of a disappointment, but one that I'll get over

Aren't F1 engines under 2.0 liters and 1000HP? The M139 is spectacular and AMG is one of the best engine makers out there. With twin scroll turbos 400, 450HP should be achieved easily. I am in the camp that once you exceed 400HP you are in high performance land with an engine and unfortunately things can go wrong with any maker.

I have never had a supercharged car but when I drove an Evora GT it was similar to the power delivery of a NA engine and that's what I like. But, when they ramp up the I4 it's gonna make for an awesome Emira. Great to have choices with this car. I don't think that's talked about enough.

 

[LotusB]

They've been running i4 mules and prototypes for over 2 years. There were numerous validation cars being built and driving around the site when I visited Hethel in January. Development and approvals on the i4 are running about 3-4 months after the equivalent V6 plans. The extra time had been planned in by Lotus because the i4 needed more development work than the already-familiar V6.

They've been running the V6 platform for over 10-years. I'm sure they have mules, but there's not a single prototype that's been available to anyone, even as a passenger. The AMG version on display was a non-driving version. They're still tuning the sound of it and haven't released a single clip (besides what we found embedded in a documentary, that we believe is one), etc.

So maybe they told you they've been running mules/prototypes/whatever... but there's nothing public, whereas the V6 has been flaunted since day one, driven by Jenson Button at Goodwood, on display all over, many of us have sat in one and touched it. You get the point.