Jethro addresses 'the review'

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere. Just catching up with my EVO reading and saw Jethro addresses the claims of Porsche bias and corruption!
I think he just called YOU a nutter

 

[Tonyshepp]

Because there's a massive delta in price. Massive. Emira V6 FE is at the very top of its options load to get to the price as tested. The GT4 is 12% higher than that with NO options. Adding similar options to the GT4, the price difference (at MSRP) is 24%. And that's without a shred of deviated stitching or other Porsche option madness.

And the GT4 can't be purchased anywhere that I am aware of for MSRP. With the dealer "extra cheese" of $30k-$50k ADM on top, a GT4 is likely 50% more expensive on the road compared to an Emira V6 FE.

THAT is why it isn't a fair test. It's all of this stuff taken together... it's not equivalent price class, and it isn't equivalent configured equipment. The class of tires wasn't fairly comparable. And to be honest the two cars don't even share equivalent development goals.

There is no way a reasonable person would look at the pricing and intent of the two products and conclude that one should be compared as a benchmark to the other. The GT products at Porsche are intended for a different audience and are more uncompromising as a result. A truly Emira-price-equivalent 718 Cayman wouldn't have fared well against that GT4 on the same track on the same day either. And EVO knew that. To pretend otherwise is just obnoxious.

GTS 4 is a fair comparison on price and it sounds like a toss of a coin between this and the Emira for the overall best packaged car.

 

[EspritGuy]

I think because of the way the Emira looks, people want it to perform like the cars its looks compete with. It doesn't, and that's where the disappointment comes in. It performs quite well within its price point, which is something that I don't believe is emphasized enough in some reviews. Jethro demonstrates that he knows he wasn't exactly fair, by doing the standard way-over-the-top dramatic examples that nobody said to try and make his performance appear as not a big deal. The fact that he got the reaction he did was because it was a big deal, and it wasn't done quite honorably, which is a shame because it could have been. What really soured a lot of people was the comparison to a more expensive track focused Porsche set up for a track test that the Emira was not set up for. Blind-siding Lotus like that was not cool, and he knows it. I don't think it was deliberate, but he has enough experience to know better, and is feeling the sting of that.

His comment about Henry's observation is the first I've seen of Henry's thoughts. Has that been published anywhere? It just strikes me as odd that both he and Henry are saying the Emira steering didn't feel right, yet Chris Harris who certainly has the experience to know, has high praise for the steering. Two different pre-production cars with two completely different reactions to the steering from reviewers. Harry is shocked at how different the Sport chassis setup feels on the road than the Touring setup does, and changes his order as a result. Chris is driving a Touring setup and just loves how good it is on British roads, and although it's raining, he does his usual sliding around on the track. On the track he talks about how "sublime" the steering is. These contradictory reviews are what's causing some of the reactions.

These 'reviews' are all on pre-production cars which is probably the reason behind the contradictions, since no two cars are exactly the same. To me this is the real issue, and that's on Lotus. They should have picked one car with Touring, and one with Sport, set them up appropriately, and given those same cars to each preview/review group to drive. I believe that would have given a more consistent result in the impressions and reviews. This is what would happen if actual production cars were given for review; they'd all be built to the exact same settings, specs, tuning, software, etc. The hodge-podge of the pre-production thing has added to some of the confusion in my opinion, and should have at the very least been rigorously emphasized as previews; not reviews.

To be fair, I think the reality that the Emira is designed to be a £59,995 car at its base point, is where the comparisons should be made. It wasn't designed to be an FE; that model just happens to include pretty much all the options for the base model as a special deal, to help get the car off the ground sales-wise. They didn't realize they weren't going to need it; the looks alone is largely the reason behind it's pre-production sales. The fact that it's being considered as a possible alternative to a Cayman (or any Porsche for that matter) says more about the expectations its looks have created, than anything else.

My feelings are, that in a way, the inclusion of the V6 with manual was done somewhat as an homage to their past cars knowing that Lotus enthusiasts like manual transmissions. Many sports car enthusiasts do. The Emira IS the end of the ICE era for Lotus; their last ICE car, so there's somewhat of a tribute aspect to it. The V6 model is for those who just like to drive without necessarily being focused on 10/10 maximum performance. The i4 model is a nod to the current trends of power and DCT for those who want speed; the more the better, and the faster the better. That customer group will be different. It's good that the Emira is going to be sellable to both groups. I believe the backlog of orders for the V6 gives a hint at what the order book is going to look like for the i4.

Lotus has a hit on their hands, and it's due to looks that are better than most any other sports car currently being produced, and the incredible price point. The fact that the reviews say it's a great road car just ensures this will be a very successful model. Hopefully Lotus gets a reasonable dealer network in place to keep it all going.

I really like your first sentence and closing.

 

[TomE]

Yes I get that. But i very much doubt that it would have changed the tone of the review.
IF the Sports geometry means a positive change to the driving dynamic, then I think that really should have been mentioned in the specification and is in itself misleading simply saying its a firmer damper. I don't know why cars with the drivers pack wouldn't have the keenest geometry set up also.

This is what it says on the Lotus website. It says Sports is a stiffer setup for enhanced dynamics. It doesn't say about the geometry, but it would be reasonable to assume different geometries between the two setups.

Drivers Pack is an option with both Touring and Sport, and is standard on the FE. Choosing it doesn't affect the geometry, your choice of chassis and tyre does.

 

[CarGuy07]

I have actually come to like Jethro’s first drive and comments. It’s a good reality check for all: Lotus, their cars, and fans. The fact that some members here continue to diss on Jethro while defending Lotus/Emira further solidifies his article. It’s similar to Apple fanboys being sheep. Putting looks aside (which is subjective btw), the Emira simply doesn’t perform as well as it should for the price.

“It’s a different car” they say. When Porsche came out with the 718 4cyl, while it performed great and the chassis was improved vs 981, it was clear people didn’t love it; and Porsche worked on changing that. Some people said “well they originally had a 4cyl blah blah,” but the fact that people voted with their wallet said otherwise. My point is this: some will defend Lotus no matter what; others will point out flaws hoping Lotus would give a damn and do something out it. Competition is good and constructive criticism is good! Just don’t let looks or personal biases cloud objective criticism or feedback. I frankly find the fact that Lotus has had a systemic record of terrible communication and management mind boggling. How is their management team still being allowed to exist when not much has improved in the last few decades? Being a brand new potential customer to the brand (though I have admired them since a teen), I can clearly see the dinosaur-like pattern of thinking: same engine, transmission, thought process, internal management, etc. It is all very antiquated. I sure hope for their sake that Geely and folks at Lotus read posts like these and get a wake up call. Maybe fresh set of eyes is what Lotus needs.

 

[jmn444]

Why is it silly to believe that a Journalist working for a magazine depending on advertising is influenced?

Audi, VW, Skoda, Seat, Porsche, Bentley, Lambourghini, - did I miss one? What's the combined ad spend and press officer junket budget?

Hethel has Sandra who handles PR and some biscuits.


The world is powered by money...

Nothing he said was false. Get over it.

 

[Mctaff]

Why is it silly to believe that a Journalist working for a magazine depending on advertising is influenced?

Audi, VW, Skoda, Seat, Porsche, Bentley, Lambourghini, - did I miss one? What's the combined ad spend and press officer junket budget?

Hethel has Sandra who handles PR and some biscuits.


The world is powered by money...

But then Evo says some Hyundai beats the Golf GTI…. The M8 beats the RS7… the theory isn’t unreasonable, but the evidence doesn’t seem to support it

I grant you an Evo 911 group review tends to always say the same thing… although from memory they said the R8 was better at some point… but then the 911 truly is a cracking car

 

[Eagle7]

I have actually come to like Jethro’s first drive and comments. It’s a good reality check for all: Lotus, their cars, and fans. The fact that some members here continue to diss on Jethro while defending Lotus/Emira further solidifies his article. It’s similar to Apple fanboys being sheep. Putting looks aside (which is subjective btw), the Emira simply doesn’t perform as well as it should for the price.

“It’s a different car” they say. When Porsche came out with the 718 4cyl, while it performed great and the chassis was improved vs 981, it was clear people didn’t love it; and Porsche worked on changing that. Some people said “well they originally had a 4cyl blah blah,” but the fact that people voted with their wallet said otherwise. My point is this: some will defend Lotus no matter what; others will point out flaws hoping Lotus would give a damn and do something out it. Competition is good and constructive criticism is good! Just don’t let looks or personal biases cloud objective criticism or feedback. I frankly find the fact that Lotus has had a systemic record of terrible communication and management mind boggling. How is their management team still being allowed to exist when not much has improved in the last few decades? Being a brand new potential customer to the brand (though I have admired them since a teen), I can clearly see the dinosaur-like pattern of thinking: same engine, transmission, thought process, internal management, etc. It is all very antiquated. I sure hope for their sake that Geely and folks at Lotus read posts like these and get a wake up call. Maybe fresh set of eyes is what Lotus needs.

The moment you wrote "It's similar to Apple fanboys being sheep" you wiped out any value of your comment. It shows that you yourself are infected with the same tunnel-vision you criticize others for.

Constructive criticism isn't a problem; it was the way he acted; acting like Lotus had dropped a deuce in the punch bowl was the problem.

Criticism is good, just don't let the need to appear objective cloud appreciation or feedback for what is positive, or prevent you from seeing the whole, complete picture.

Your comment "I can clearly see the dinosaur-like pattern of thinking: same engine, transmission, thought process, internal management, etc. It is all very antiquated." is an example of wanting to appear objective. The AMG engine is not the same engine, the DCT attached to it is not the same transmission. Somehow that fell outside the tunnel you wanted to see through. As did the fact that the factory and production process is brand new, paint system is brand new, etc. There's nothing 'same old' or antiquated about any of that. There's considerable effort to reinvent the company, and while there are issues and areas that need work, the whole effort should be acknowledged to be fair. Acknowledging the totality of what is actually there is not being a fan boy, it's being thorough.

The fact that the Emira is the last of its kind should have given people the clue as to its intent. The Evija and Eletre show anything but dinosaur-like thinking or being antiquated.

 

[jmn444]

^^^ you are just taking it the wrong way if you think his review was comparing the emira to a deuce in the punchbowl lmao... the 1st 7 minutes were all positive, as were some comments after that point. This wasn't a total bash piece at all.

And I must have totally missed that car reviews are supposed to be about the entire company and their future plans! That's a new one for me lol.. He was reviewing a V6 emira, that's it. And that's all I'm buying, so could really care less about any speculation about the benefits of the future models/drivetrains. I mean really what does a Evija have to do with reviewing the performance of an Emira??

Not only did the drivetrain not change, it went BACKWARDS, and you think Jethro should be happy about that when 90% of the people on here aren't either?

 

[Leonard]

This is what it says on the Lotus website. It says Sports is a stiffer setup for enhanced dynamics. It doesn't say about the geometry, but it would be reasonable to assume different geometries between the two setups.

View attachment 7186

Drivers Pack is an option with both Touring and Sport, and is standard on the FE. Choosing it doesn't affect the geometry, your choice of chassis and tyre does.

I dont think that's a reasonable assumption at all, but hey we all look at and interpret things differently.

 

[Porter]

GTS 4 is a fair comparison on price and it sounds like a toss of a coin between this and the Emira for the overall best packaged car.

It's way closer and is certainly a closer performance match, but actually I don't totally agree on market equivalency. With comparable options added the GTS 4.0 is more than the Emira as well, by almost 10%. Puts it over $100k US. When truly configured equivalently the closest pricing is between the Emira V6 FE and an optioned-up Cayman S (4cyl).

That's the exciting value proposition of the Lotus for people with families and day jobs... something truly special and different within a reasonably stretch-accessible price range for those who aren't the usual supercar buyers (independently wealthy entrepreneurs or idle rich).

It doesn't say about the geometry, but it would be reasonable to assume different geometries between the two setups.

Several folks reported asking this question at Goodwood and were told explicitly that each of the three configurations has unique chassis geometry/alignment settings. That makes sense to me based on my own chassis setup experience. The tires in particular are going to dictate a potentially significant difference in camber and toe configuration to get equivalent handling balance. It's hard to overstate how differently tires in the track-oriented class behave (compared to summer sport tires) as you approach the limit of traction, particularly on dry warm pavement.

I've wondered more than once whether the Sports chassis car that EVO used in their testing was set up with the Cup2 geometry but had the Goodyear tires on. It would answer a lot of questions if that were the case, particularly those raised by the dramatically different feedback from different reviewers regarding steering input and front understeer.

 

[Leonard]

My BIGGEST issue with the Emira is that it isn't superior dynamically or drivetrain wise over the outgoing Evora.
And I believe that is where most of the frustration and negativity is born from by the more hardcore motoring press.
An Evora 410 or 430 GT with all the Emira upgraded body and interior bells and whistles would have truly been a special car in my humble opinion

 

[TomE]

I dont think that's a reasonable assumption at all, but hey we all look at and interpret things differently.

Which manufacturers publish information about geometry differences between different variants of the same model? I've just had a look on the Porsche website as an example and can't find any info about geometry differences between the various Caymans. I'd assume they'd tune the setups for differences in suspension, engine, tyres, weight etc.

 

[Leonard]

I've wondered more than once whether the Sports chassis car that EVO used in their testing was set up with the Cup2 geometry but had the Goodyear tires on. It would answer a lot of questions if that were the case, particularly those raised by the dramatically different feedback from different reviewers regarding steering input and front understeer.

Lotus have 'messed up' in trying to make the Emira the car for everybody. They shouldn't have had two/three chassis set ups it would have sold just as well in GT410 form.
If they wanted to do it all then they should either have released multiple models from the off or developed adjustable dampers

 

[Leonard]

Which manufacturers publish information about geometry differences between different variants of the same model? I've just had a look on the Porsche website as an example and can't find any info about geometry differences between the various Caymans. I'd assume they'd tune the setups for differences in suspension, engine, tyres, weight etc.

Because you are talking about different models designed to offer certain driving dynamics. Lotus has the one model with different set ups. Hence why you would presume that if ticking a box had such a profound difference in dynamics they would educate you as to the differences

 

[MaybeNeedEmira]

Some points in that article ring true.
Definitely some tribal bias from Lotus/McLaren/Alpine (and Porsche) types who will need a big push to realign/buy outside their comfort zone.

On the other hand, many car buyers use Media reviews to inform .. and will have different care-about factors.

Will I be swayed from a CaymanS PDK to into an I4 base? It will be an interesting test drive.

Some potential buyers will be swayed by the wait .. and a list like this: https://www.caranddriver.com/lotus/emira

See the ranking? Some valid competition there. Was going to do a screen grab, but then might need to duck-and-cover.

Mild spec PDK Cayman vs Emira base I4 seems like a valid comparison point. At least while Emira is set at 300hp.
Need to see a no-options interior before I can decide if + options are adding value (to me)

 

[TomE]

Because you are talking about different models designed to offer certain driving dynamics. Lotus has the one model with different set ups. Hence why you would presume that if ticking a box had such a profound difference in dynamics they would educate you as to the differences

They called one Touring and one Sports. That seems pretty clear. Perhaps Road and Track would have been clearer.

 

[Eagle7]

^^^ you are just taking it the wrong way if you think his review was comparing the emira to a deuce in the punchbowl lmao... the 1st 7 minutes were all positive, as were some comments after that point. This wasn't a total bash piece at all.

And I must have totally missed that car reviews are supposed to be about the entire company and their future plans! That's a new one for me lol.. He was reviewing a V6 emira, that's it. And that's all I'm buying, so could really care less about any speculation about the benefits of the future models/drivetrains. I mean really what does a Evija have to do with reviewing the performance of an Emira??

Not only did the drivetrain not change, it went BACKWARDS, and you think Jethro should be happy about that when 90% of the people on here aren't either?

Actually you took it the wrong way. If you watch his facial expressions, the sour look, the sighing and the way he's talking, that's what my comment about dropping a deuce in the punchbowl was about.

You also seemed to have missed the quotation I had put from the person I was quoting "I can clearly see the dinosaur-like pattern of thinking: same engine, transmission, thought process, internal management, etc. It is all very antiquated." which is about the company as well as the car.

The Evija gives a preview of the design philosophy (which influenced the Emira by the way) of what the Type 135 is going to be like. Unless I'm mistaken, the Type 135 is going to be the affordable electric sports car that's going to take over the spot the Emira will be giving up when regulations force them to end production.

So even Jethro acknowledged that it was wrong to compare the Emira to the Evora; even he said it was a different car. Chris Harris said the same thing. You're narrow focusing your criticism. The Emira isn't just the V6, it's the i4/DCT too which is going to outperform every previous model Lotus, including the Evora. The V6 isn't the only version, so clearly Lotus was thinking beyond what they're being given credit for.

I also think you're way over-estimating the percentage of people who aren't happy about the V6/manual trans drivetrain combo. It's that combo that sold out the first production run within 2 weeks. The hardcore Lotus crowd isn't happy about it, but that's not a very big demographic to be honest. Certainly not big enough to keep the company solvent. The sales backlog shows they made the right decisions with the Emira. The i4 model will be the performance champion. That is until the Type 135 is rolled out.

 

[Porter]

I frankly find the fact that Lotus has had a systemic record of terrible communication and management mind boggling. How is their management team still being allowed to exist when not much has improved in the last few decades? Being a brand new potential customer to the brand (though I have admired them since a teen), I can clearly see the dinosaur-like pattern of thinking: same engine, transmission, thought process, internal management, etc. It is all very antiquated. I sure hope for their sake that Geely and folks at Lotus read posts like these and get a wake up call. Maybe fresh set of eyes is what Lotus needs.

I've been extremely critical of Lotus on a number of different topics over the last six or eight months, but I honestly don't think this is a fair take on the current management at all. The people that are running Lotus Cars today are absolutely not the same management team that has been in the driver's seat of the brand for the last decades, nor are they cut from the same cloth.

Yes, the brand has a troubled executive management history, mostly because of a tumultuous ownership history. But throughout the recent decades it's the engineers and designers and project people that have tied together the marque into something consistent and admirable that sports car owners could buy into (both emotionally and financially) despite the upper management challenges. And those product-focused, driving experience-focused people who were designing and building great driver's cars despite the mercurial management are now the ones running the show. It's an absolutely fantastic set of outcomes considering what could have happened after being bought by a multi-billion dollar Chinese firm.

Far from restructuring under tightly controlled foreign management (as has ruined far bigger brands), Geely looked at the available talent and leadership potential in-house and decided to let the most respected and passionate internal product champions actually run the show. They aren't doing it in a vacuum, or in isolation without any oversight at all, but they have had the freedom to focus on making the best car that they can, given obvious constraints around both price and available parts and resources.

My hat is off to them, honestly. To the three key leadership personnel (Windle, Kershaw, and Carr) and also to the hundreds of passionate engineers, craftspeople, and mechanics who have developed the car and prepared this production effort to take flight. It's really admirable.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[jmn444]

one more time, he did NOT review the I4 version.

still buying the car in spite of the unhappiness about the performance decrease is NOT a sign that those people aren't unhappy with it still. I would bet big money that every single deposit holder would prefer to have 7200rpm and 416hp if given the choice.

But sure, Jethro is the bad guy for stating facts lol...

 

[Eagle7]

Lotus have 'messed up' in trying to make the Emira the car for everybody. They shouldn't have had two/three chassis set ups it would have sold just as well in GT410 form.
If they wanted to do it all then they should either have released multiple models from the off or developed adjustable dampers

To be fair, they had no idea the Emira would sell like it has. It's also an end of the era/line car; how much development money and resources would you expect them to devote to it? Especially when they're showing 4 electric models under cloth as a sneak preview of what they're actually working on at the moment.

When they rolled out the Emira they were probably hoping to sell 2,000 cars in a year, which would have been a 25% increase over what they'd been selling. No one dreamed they'd be taking deposits for over 2,000 cars in one week. The response at last year's Goodwood FOS must have been like a bomb going off. According to Scott's comments, they were in complete shock.