Jethro addresses 'the review'

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere. Just catching up with my EVO reading and saw Jethro addresses the claims of Porsche bias and corruption!
I think he just called YOU a nutter

 

[Leonard]

They called one Touring and one Sports. That seems pretty clear. Perhaps Road and Track would have been clearer.

Not really. Without any reference you have no idea what you are getting.
It should have been GT and Sport and followed the exact same referencing as the outgoing Evora if anything.
As I've said tho trying to have one model do everything is a bit of recipe for disaster.
I'm 'lucky' now the cars are delayed as I can drive one before i take delivery. If I had recieved my car this month i could have driven it off the forecourt and within 10 miles realised I had made a massive mistake. That may still be the case but at least now I can either reject the car or change the spec and put it back 6 months...

 

[CarGuy07]

Lotus have 'messed up' in trying to make the Emira the car for everybody. They shouldn't have had two/three chassis set ups it would have sold just as well in GT410 form.
If they wanted to do it all then they should either have released multiple models from the off or developed adjustable dampers

I agree with this in the sense that people were expecting that Lotus magic and performance (things they’ve done so well with spartan interiors), coupled with good looks. THAT IS WHAT WOULD HAVE CATAPULTED LOTUS TO THE NEXT LEVEL. Instead, it’s a step backwards in terms of performance. Performance NEEDS to be competitive, not just good looks.

 

[Leonard]

To be fair, they had no idea the Emira would sell like it has. It's also an end of the era/line car; how much development money and resources would you expect them to devote to it? Especially when they're showing 4 electric models under cloth as a sneak preview of what they're actually working on at the moment.

When they rolled out the Emira they were probably hoping to sell 2,000 cars in a year, which would have been a 25% increase over what they'd been selling. No one dreamed they'd be taking deposits for over 2,000 cars in one week. The response at last year's Goodwood FOS must have been like a bomb going off. According to Scott's comments, they were in complete shock.

I'm not sure I believe that. Yes no doubt the UK success was better than expected. But this is a car designed to appeal to a global/Asian Market.
Again no issues with that it makes perfect sense.
Don't advertise it as 'for the Drivers' and the last ICE Lotus hurrah if you are going to dumb it down over the outgoing Evora however. I want ro see it moved on! Lol

 

[Porter]

Which manufacturers publish information about geometry differences between different variants of the same model? I've just had a look on the Porsche website as an example and can't find any info about geometry differences between the various Caymans. I'd assume they'd tune the setups for differences in suspension, engine, tyres, weight etc.

They are published in the factory service manual. Which as a matter of law must be available for purchase in order to facilitate repair, at least in the US. I would imagine availability for public purchase is true in many other countries as well, but it's a matter of explicit legal requirement for all vehicles sold in the United States. You can't homologate a car for sale here without it.

Some brands publish this information clearly in the vehicle owner's manual as well, at least for certain products. I believe Corvette does so, not sure. Subaru does for the WRX and STI, for example.

 

[Leonard]

I agree with this in the sense that people were expecting that Lotus magic and performance (things they’ve done so well with spartan interiors), coupled with good looks. THAT IS WHAT WOULD HAVE CATAPULTED LOTUS TO THE NEXT LEVEL. Instead, it’s a step backwards in terms of performance. Performance NEEDS to be competitive, not just good looks.

Yup % I was just typing the same as you were posting

 

[CarGuy07]

To be fair, they had no idea the Emira would sell like it has. It's also an end of the era/line car; how much development money and resources would you expect them to devote to it? Especially when they're showing 4 electric models under cloth as a sneak preview of what they're actually working on at the moment.

When they rolled out the Emira they were probably hoping to sell 2,000 cars in a year, which would have been a 25% increase over what they'd been selling. No one dreamed they'd be taking deposits for over 2,000 cars in one week. The response at last year's Goodwood FOS must have been like a bomb going off. According to Scott's comments, they were in complete shock.

There we go defending Lotus again. If it was the company’s grand re-opening/launch with a last ICE car, shouldn’t it something phenomenal? If you fail, at least go out with a bang. Instead, it’s a bit of a lackluster product that’s supposed to be the new face of Lotus. If they didn’t anticipate the amount of interest on the Emira, then that’s on them for not understanding the market or do enough research. That’s beside the point though: whether it’s 100 cars or 10,000 cars a year, there’s a lot of things Lotus could have and should have done better. I don’t understand how everyone understands that that’s how Lotus has been for years, and yet some folks are essentially saying “well we’ll still put up with it.”

 

[Flashback]

Because there's a massive delta in price. Massive. Emira V6 FE is at the very top of its options load to get to the price as tested. The GT4 is 12% higher than that with NO options. Adding similar options to the GT4, the price difference (at MSRP) is 24%. And that's without a shred of deviated stitching or other Porsche option madness.

And the GT4 can't be purchased anywhere that I am aware of for MSRP. With the dealer "extra cheese" of $30k-$50k ADM on top, a GT4 is likely 50% more expensive on the road compared to an Emira V6 FE.

Here in the UK (where Bovingdon is) you can't buy a new one at any price, unless you're 'chosen'.

We're not getting a new GT car no matter how long we're prepared to wait, so why bother telling us they're the best car you can buy in that bracket?

I enquired about a 991 GT3 order myself around 7 years ago and was told 'no chance'. I tried again multiple times over the years: not a chance of an allocation. Several dealers were very open about roughly how many other new cars I'd need to buy from them before I'd be in with any hope.

Over here, the dealers use GT cars as a reward to serial car buyers and the serial car buyers often use their GT cars to generate 'overs' to subsidise their other purchases. It's essentially a rebate and it ensures that many, many of the cars never get to enthusiasts unless they're prepared to pay 50%+ over retail for a secondhand one.

EVO always insist on telling us how great every GT2/3/4 and RS is, and how it's that car you should be buying not the ABC or XYZ they've compared it to, while knowing full well 99% aren't allowed one and that the people who can buy one will be buying it regardless of reviews anyway.

I was an EVO reader/subscriber almost from day 1 but I much gave up with it eventually because of the constant pointless Porsche GT rhetoric they publish.

How JB thinks there's value in telling us that a GT4 that we can't buy is better than an Emira that we can buy, and which isn't a competitor to the GT4 anyway, is beyond me.

 

[Eagle7]

one more time, he did NOT review the I4 version.

still buying the car in spite of the unhappiness about the performance decrease is NOT a sign that those people aren't unhappy with it still. I would bet big money that every single deposit holder would prefer to have 7200rpm and 416hp if given the choice.

But sure, Jethro is the bad guy for stating facts lol...

Who said he did? YOU'RE unhappy along with some others in here, but there are thousands of buyers who aren't a part of this forum, and of the thousand members we do have in here, there are maybe a dozen or two who comment. I don't care one way or the other. Another 16 hp at the top of the rpm range isn't something that will make an appreciable difference to me. Neither will another 400 rpm up there. Even if it was there, I wouldn't be using it very often on the street which is where I and probably the vast majority of Emira buyers will be driving their cars. You would prefer it, and those who like your posts and agree with you would, but it's not there as part of the production spec. That's where after-market tuning will come in so it's something that will be fixable if it matters that much to you.

They weren't able to provide that hp and rpm because of emissions regulations. That's the way it is, not something they planned or wanted. Pretending they could have and just aren't is silly.

One more time, Jethro got the reaction he did not just for stating the facts as he saw them, but it was the way he did it and the way the comparison was done. When Henry brought the car back after his extended trip, and handed it over, don't you think Jethro asked him how it went? What his impressions were? Henry mentions the steering, so what does Jethro do? Takes it out to the track without telling Lotus, and criticizes the steering. Obviously there was some issue with that particular car if Henry observed the same thing. So why not do what Harry did when he observed something he wasn't expecting, and called Lotus to ask about it? Gavan sent another car to him the next morning. Do you think if Jethro had called Lotus they wouldn't have done the same thing? Especially if he told them he was taking the car to the track and comparing it to a GT4?

Jethro was not cool about the way he went about what he did, he knows it, and is now trying to do damage control. That doesn't make him a bad guy, but it did look bad, and that's what has caused the reaction he got.

 

[Eagle7]

There we go defending Lotus again. If it was the company’s grand re-opening/launch with a last ICE car, shouldn’t it something phenomenal? If you fail, at least go out with a bang. Instead, it’s a bit of a lackluster product that’s supposed to be the new face of Lotus. If they didn’t anticipate the amount of interest on the Emira, then that’s on them for not understanding the market or do enough research. That’s beside the point though: whether it’s 100 cars or 10,000 cars a year, there’s a lot of things Lotus could have and should have done better. I don’t understand how everyone understands that that’s how Lotus has been for years, and yet some folks are essentially saying “well we’ll still put up with it.”

It is phenomenal; look at the sales. They've taken more orders in the last 12 months than Evoras sold in 12 YEARS. That apparently isn't phenomenal to YOU because it isn't exactly what YOU want, but they weren't staying in business catering to you and those like you. The Emira isn't the final car of the company; they aren't closing. It's their last ICE car and an homage to the ICE era, but with a taste of their future in style and interior. That's the new face part, and it's gotten them a lot of attention which has helped generate a lot of sales; sales which they need to stay in business.

Of course there are a lot of things Lotus could have and should have done better. That can be said about pretty much any company, especially a small company that's in the process of reinventing itself. Their entire Emira customer base is now watching to see how this is going to go. It isn't over yet; one way or the other. They aren't a resounding success, or a crash and burn either at this point. Everything is in flux and we're all hoping for the best, but waiting to see how this is going to turn out.

They made the right decision business-wise, now let's hope they can pull it all together and stay in business.

 

[Tonyshepp]

Not really. Without any reference you have no idea what you are getting.
It should have been GT and Sport and followed the exact same referencing as the outgoing Evora if anything.
As I've said tho trying to have one model do everything is a bit of recipe for disaster.
I'm 'lucky' now the cars are delayed as I can drive one before i take delivery. If I had recieved my car this month i could have driven it off the forecourt and within 10 miles realised I had made a massive mistake. That may still be the case but at least now I can either reject the car or change the spec and put it back 6 months...

And even go to I4 if the V6 isn’t for you.

 

[Speedluvver]

Here in the UK (where Bovingdon is) you can't buy a new one at any price, unless you're 'chosen'.

We're not getting a new GT car no matter how long we're prepared to wait, so why bother telling us they're the best car you can buy in that bracket?

I enquired about a 991 GT3 order myself around 7 years ago and was told 'no chance'. I tried again multiple times over the years: not a chance of an allocation. Several dealers were very open about roughly how many other new cars I'd need to buy from them before I'd be in with any hope.

Over here, the dealers use GT cars as a reward to serial car buyers and the serial car buyers often use their GT cars to generate 'overs' to subsidise their other purchases. It's essentially a rebate and it ensures that many, many of the cars never get to enthusiasts unless they're prepared to pay 50%+ over retail for a secondhand one.

EVO always insist on telling us how great every GT2/3/4 and RS is, and how it's that car you should be buying not the ABC or XYZ they've compared it to, while knowing full well 99% aren't allowed one and that the people who can buy one will be buying it regardless of reviews anyway.

I was an EVO reader/subscriber almost from day 1 but I much gave up with it eventually because of the constant pointless Porsche GT rhetoric they publish.

How JB thinks there's value in telling us that a GT4 that we can't buy is better than an Emira that we can buy, and which isn't a competitor to the GT4 anyway, is beyond me.

This…. My brother had the same from more than one Porsche dealer.
Re EVO, I was the same and had the same reason for stopping my subscription…

From other posts.. On the 416Hp and 7k… remember.. this had to be reduced to meet emissions - this has been said a few times, but folks seem to forget…
If you don’t like the car, then stop whinging and don’t get it… when I heard the v6 going up the hill at goodwood, it sounded great to my ears and many others, it also just was mentioned in the top 10 v6’s on pistonheads.

Oh… and my Exige s2 had ‘ok’ reviews when it first came out, as did the S1 Exige, now they are the ones everyone wants with values climbing..

so don’t hang on reviews - get the car you want

 

[Porter]

Not only did the drivetrain not change, it went BACKWARDS, and you think Jethro should be happy about that when 90% of the people on here aren't either?

still buying the car in spite of the unhappiness about the performance decrease is NOT a sign that those people aren't unhappy with it still. I would bet big money that every single deposit holder would prefer to have 7200rpm and 416hp if given the choice.

Hang on a minute, I think this is a big misperception. The Emira does not have an older/lower state of tune compared to the Evora GT or GT410. To the contrary, based on everything I have read and watched and heard, both from Lotus and from those who have been in direct conversation with Lotus, this is a further iteration and tuning development of the same drivetrain.

Matt Windle's comment to camera at last year's Goodwood about it being "actually 416" reflects that. There's no way he would have been so confidently or immediately responsive in that way in that moment if they were in the process of intentionally de-tuning the Evora drivetrain for the Emira application.

The real story is almost certainly the most boring one. Their fully developed drivetrain configuration didn't meet all of the rapidly changing global emissions requirements that they were saddled with during mid and late stage development, and in order to hit the emissions targets and requirements set by worldwide jurisdictions (and by Geely for as much production standardization as possible) they were forced to lower the redline slightly to achieve both goals.

If that all holds true in the delivered product (and I honestly believe it will), the performance below redline should be a further refinement of the tuning delivered in the latest Evora that used the same supercharger. So for everything except the very last quarter-second of extra rev before a 10/10ths full throttle redline shift, the driving experience should lack nothing.

I'd love to see dyno graphs from the two cars produced in identical conditions, and overlay the torque curves to compare directly... now THAT would be a clear and valid comparison, with direct experiential implications. That's by far the easiest and most appropriate way to measure and validate tuning developments.

Until proven otherwise by dyno plots I think it's safe to assume that the most significant difference is the perception of the specs on paper. It's the numeric change that really bothers people. Which is a fair complaint, to be sure, but it doesn't necessarily reflect anything substantive about the actual experience of driving the car.


The substantially increased weight of the Emira compared to the Evora is a far more performance-significant difference between the two products, and in my opinion is more deserving of criticism than the horsepower number. I get that adding comfort and easier repairability naturally adds weight, but it's added a sizable jump in figures that I didn't expect, especially considering Lotus's historic weight-impact-on-dynamics focus and the contemporary competitive example of the Alpine A110.

 

[Leonard]

From other posts.. On the 416Hp and 7k… remember.. this had to be reduced to meet emissions

I still don't believe this is true...
I'm definitely not happy having seen everything pan out as it has over the past 12 months. But it doesn't mean I don't want to like the car.
I'm pretty sure it isn't for me at this point, (it doesn't feel like the special last ICE car to tuck away in the garage until the end of my days) but will reserve judgement until I drive it and hope to be proved wrong

 

[Leonard]

Hang on a minute, I think this is a big misperception. The Emira does not have an older/lower state of tune compared to the Evora GT or GT410. To the contrary, based on everything I have read and watched and heard, both from Lotus and from those who have been in direct conversation with Lotus, this is a further iteration and tuning development of the same drivetrain.

Matt Windle's comment to camera at last year's Goodwood about it being "actually 416" reflects that. There's no way he would have been so confidently or immediately responsive in that way in that moment if they were in the process of intentionally de-tuning the Evora drivetrain for the Emira application.

The real story is almost certainly the most boring one. Their fully developed drivetrain configuration didn't meet all of the rapidly changing global emissions requirements that they were saddled with during mid and late stage development, and in order to hit the emissions targets and requirements set by worldwide jurisdictions (and by Geely for as much production standardization as possible) they were forced to lower the redline slightly to achieve both goals.

If that all holds true in the delivered product (and I honestly believe it will), the performance below redline should be a further refinement of the tuning delivered in the latest Evora that used the same supercharger. So for everything except the very last quarter-second of extra rev before a 10/10ths full throttle redline shift, the driving experience should lack nothing.

I'd love to see dyno graphs from the two cars produced in identical conditions, and overlay the torque curves to compare directly... now THAT would be a clear and valid comparison, with direct experiential implications. That's by far the easiest and most appropriate way to measure and validate tuning developments.

Until proven otherwise by dyno plots I think it's safe to assume that the most significant difference is the perception of the specs on paper. It's the numeric change that really bothers people. Which is a fair complaint, to be sure, but it doesn't necessarily reflect anything substantive about the actual experience of driving the car.


The substantially increased weight of the Emira compared to the Evora is a far more performance-significant difference between the two products, and in my opinion is more deserving of criticism than the horsepower number. I get that adding comfort and easier repairability naturally adds weight, but it's added a sizable jump in figures that I didn't expect, especially considering Lotus's historic weight-impact-on-dynamics focus and the contemporary competitive example of the Alpine A110.

You won't convince me that it hasnt been detuned and remapped to simply make it more accesible to more people. Same with the chassis

 

[Speedluvver]

I still don't believe this is true...
I'm definitely not happy having seen everything pan out as it has over the past 12 months. But it doesn't mean I don't want to like the car.
I'm pretty sure it isn't for me at this point, (it doesn't feel like the special last ICE car to tuck away in the garage until the end of my days) but will reserve judgement until I drive it and hope to be proved wrong

You won't convince me that it hasnt been detuned and remapped to simply make it more accesible to more people. Same with the chassis

That’s up to you…. I believe them in this case knowing a couple of folks with connections to the automotive business and the hell that are emissions.

I have had my exige since 2005 and it’s still an event to drive after all those years… I am confident Emira will be the same…

 

[Leonard]

That’s up to you…. I believe them in this case knowing a couple of folks with connections to the automotive business and the hell that are emissions.

I have had my exige since 2005 and it’s still an event to drive after all those years… I am confident Emira will be the same…

I'm happy to be proved wrong.
If anyone has links to the changes in emissions regs between 2021 Evora and 2022 Emira I will educate myself and stand corrected

 

[Pegasi]

Lotus has given a choice.

1. V6 Manual now
2. V6 Auto now
3. Detuned I4 DCT soon (that may be quicker than the V6)
4. 400+ HP I4 DCT later at a higher price

I believe when all of these variants are available, Lotus will have completed their vision.

 

[Eagle7]

You won't convince me that it hasnt been detuned and remapped to simply make it more accesible to more people. Same with the chassis

Well the people who review cars for a living are saying otherwise. It seems that most of them went into their driving experience with the preconceived notion that it was a reskinned Evora, but after driving it, they all say the same thing. It isn't.

Another thing that doesn't seem to get mentioned is the gear ratios in the gear box. The Porsche can reach 80 mph in 2nd gear, which means the rest of the gears above that are almost unusable because of the speeds you'd be traveling. That may be fine on the Autobahn, but pretty much useless on any street anywhere else. The published hp and rpm numbers for the Emira don't take into account the gearing in the trans. A close ratio gear set, or one that's closer than what the Porsche has, can make a considerable difference in the usability of the gear box and be a lot more fun in the process.

We're at the point now where we really need final production cars that people can drive and experience for themselves. The numbers on paper thing just isn't going to tell you what it's going to be like to drive it in the area where you live. I think it's going to be just fine, but there's going to be those few who think otherwise and will want to wait for the i4 version. The only problem with waiting is due to inflation, the cost of fun is clearly going to be going up.

 

[Nova]

I really doubt this, reason being that 400hp isn't really that much, and the Evora was/is not a difficult car to drive quickly. I just don't see why they need to numb the Emira for mass appeal. In the modern day of multiple driving modes, there is simply no need to detune anything in the engine.

 

[Porter]

You won't convince me that it hasnt been detuned and remapped to simply make it more accesible to more people. Same with the chassis

What would be the benefit to Lotus? They wouldn't save a dime in production process or build costs by doing so, the hardware is identical.

I think you've let the delays and comms failures frustrate you into cynicism. Which is fair, I mean I've been frustrated too. But I'm keeping my rational hat on as much as possible and on that basis am still extending Lotus the benefit of the doubt regarding the product itself.

If we do finally get a back-to-back dyno test of the two complete production drivetrains and it shows a materially lower state of tune with a reduction in torque over the full range compared to the equivalent Evora, I'll be very surprised and disappointed. But I genuinely don't expect that to be the case.

By the way I say that as someone who has done dyno tuning of engine management systems in a professional context myself, both with custom reflash technologies and on full standalone motorsport ECMs. That certainly doesn't give my opinion any additional weight, because we don't have actual data. But on the basis of my experience, I would be shocked if the Emira is able to perform at the level that it is doing while handicapped by the extra weight that it is carrying, if the state of tune was actually lower than what was delivered on the last drivetrain-equivalent models of the Evora.