Jethro addresses 'the review'

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere. Just catching up with my EVO reading and saw Jethro addresses the claims of Porsche bias and corruption!
I think he just called YOU a nutter

 

[emiraspain]

View attachment 7191

Therein lies the problem, Jethro just oozes disdain. As an American observing him, it reads 100% as a class thing. That's why he's so particularly off-putting on this one, the attitude is just so grossly paternalistic and entitled.

Does he intend it that way? I have no idea. But it definitely comes across like that to a non-English observer.

I know little if nothing about his background and so I cant talk about class or that side of things, but yes, it's a condescending tone in anybodies language and that tone to a company with Lotus's history, and to their engineers, who have a pretty good reputation in the industry as we know. Perhaps it wasn't meant to be quite as arrogant as it came across, it's possible, but after watching the edited versions, he himself had the choice to keep it in, take it out, or do a voice over, and he didn't do any of them, and his editor perhaps didn't advise him, or maybe he did, we will never know. But again, his review said nothing that wasn't probably true, but the way he said it and did it was hugely disappointing, negative, even almost insulting and without him even trying to understand the situation Lotus were/are in. A company with failure after failure, buyout after buyout, no access to a modern V6 engine etc. A. company making a brand new ICE car just for a few years production, with a huge risk....
He was expecting the car to be XYZ, thats his error as thats NOT what Lotus were aiming for IMO and ironically its not what the first 718 was aiming for either. Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Alfa, Renault etc, they all firstly produce cars to be a commercial success, rather than an out of the box, off the bat, strike one, hole in one, 147, 9 dart finish, out and out sports car.

Its true, Lotus now have a responsibility to their owners and they have aimed the car a little differently, surely it makes perfect sense especially if you ignore what they say, as it probably isn't better than the best of the Evora's.
But wait a minute!!!! Was the first 718 better than the previous outgoing 981 GTS???/. 100% no!! The latter still sell for the price you paid for them and sound great, the former sell for half the price you paid for them and sound like an angry dyson hand dryer.
So those saying they are amazed Lotus bring out a car "worse" than the outgoing Evora, you are very much missing the idea of model variation and in this case a massive update in safety, electronics etc. Is the 991 GT3 not better than the new 992 S? 100% in everyones eyes, but once again, people comparing apples with potatoes. The top of the line end of run car is generally better than the basic new edition, almost as a rule.
Its still a sports car, just as much and more than the 718 S is IMO, which fully loaded will get you towards 65k in the UK! But its their commercial success sports car model, its their 911 S, its their Caterham 180HP. Its great, probably, but its not the finished article, its not the top of the line yet, its not the most powerful, its not the stiffest and best handling, its not their GT4 or GT3! Give them a chance to make these cars, IF thats what you want, although I dont think its what I want, as for this type of relatively heavy more touring type car (compared to a caterham), I would rather go with the commercially successful model... I think.

 

[Leonard]

I know little if nothing about his background and so I cant talk about class or that side of things, but yes, it's a condescending tone in anybodies language and that tone to a company with Lotus's history, and to their engineers, who have a pretty good reputation in the industry as we know. Perhaps it wasn't meant to be quite as arrogant as it came across, it's possible, but after watching the edited versions, he himself had the choice to keep it in, take it out, or do a voice over, and he didn't do any of them, and his editor perhaps didn't advise him, or maybe he did, we will never know. But again, his review said nothing that wasn't probably true, but the way he said it and did it was hugely disappointing, negative, even almost insulting and without him even trying to understand the situation Lotus were/are in. A company with failure after failure, buyout after buyout, no access to a modern V6 engine etc. A. company making a brand new ICE car just for a few years production, with a huge risk....
He was expecting the car to be XYZ, thats his error as thats NOT what Lotus were aiming for IMO and ironically its not what the first 718 was aiming for either. Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Alfa, Renault etc, they all firstly produce cars to be a commercial success, rather than an out of the box, off the bat, strike one, hole in one, 147, 9 dart finish, out and out sports car.

Its true, Lotus now have a responsibility to their owners and they have aimed the car a little differently, surely it makes perfect sense especially if you ignore what they say, as it probably isn't better than the best of the Evora's.
But wait a minute!!!! Was the first 718 better than the previous outgoing 981 GTS???/. 100% no!! The latter still sell for the price you paid for them and sound great, the former sell for half the price you paid for them and sound like an angry dyson hand dryer.
So those saying they are amazed Lotus bring out a car "worse" than the outgoing Evora, you are very much missing the idea of model variation and in this case a massive update in safety, electronics etc. Is the 991 GT3 not better than the new 992 S? 100% in everyones eyes, but once again, people comparing apples with potatoes. The top of the line end of run car is generally better than the basic new edition, almost as a rule.
Its still a sports car, just as much and more than the 718 S is IMO, which fully loaded will get you towards 65k in the UK! But its their commercial success sports car model, its their 911 S, its their Caterham 180HP. Its great, probably, but its not the finished article, its not the top of the line yet, its not the most powerful, its not the stiffest and best handling, its not their GT4 or GT3! Give them a chance to make these cars, IF thats what you want, although I dont think its what I want, as for this type of relatively heavy more touring type car (compared to a caterham), I would rather go with the commercially successful model... I think.

I understand what you are saying but the 981/718 example isn't a good comparison.
The 981 GTS had 326bhp, the 2.5l 718 had 365bhp and significant interior and chassis updates. The latest 4.0 moves that on again of course.

 

[Honeywell]

The pre-production Emira on non-track tyres is not a valid or reasonable thing to compare to a GT4 Porsche. Lotus will release a GT4 Emira and I am more than happy for Jethro Bovingdon - who is not a driving god or even a particularly popular motoring journalist - to compare the Cayman GT4 with the Emira GT4 and I will be interested in that comparison. Not that I the remotest interest in buying a GT4 car which don;t work on the roads I use.

 

[emiraspain]

I understand what you are saying but the 981/718 example isn't a good comparison.
The 981 GTS had 326bhp, the 2.5l 718 had 365bhp and significant interior and chassis updates. The latest 4.0 moves that on again of course.

true, but even with less HP the outgoing GTS was the far preferred car by the porsche buyer..... so it exaggerates the point I am trying to make even more, that the older car is usually better at top end. And if you dont like that one, the take the GT3 991 and 992 S, outgoing GT3 had about 500 HP, incoming 992, even later in GTS form has less power.
anyway, I also know what you are saying... but ultimately I just dont care..and I have to be right, otherwise whats the point? Im not married so that I can always be right and Im certainly not going give that up for you, even if you were right, which you are clearly not . I just want the 30 day call and put an end to it all, before its too late and we do something silly.
I have in any case realised a realisation that was really staring me in the face ... I need a caterham. it will fit perfectly in the garage along side the Emira, it has and it will stand the test of time, its narrower and inspires more confidence, its lower to the ground and you feel like your doing motorbike speeds when you are not, it holds its value and its the most go kart like car there is. If we can forget the many down sides, not the least of which is crash and probably thats the end, for the car and for you, and just focus on the positives, its truly one of the "best" drivers car out there.. more or less and I live in SPAIN.. crazy not to. Now just need to figure out how to insure a RHD one over here long term as its a xxxx to drive it back and forth to the UK. and LHD ones are insanely expensive by comparison!

ok ok ok..... you were right!

 

[Tonyshepp]

true, but even with less HP the outgoing GTS was the far preferred car by the porsche buyer..... so it exaggerates the point I am trying to make even more, that the older car is usually better at top end. And if you dont like that one, the take the GT3 991 and 992 S, outgoing GT3 had about 500 HP, incoming 992, even later in GTS form has less power.
anyway, I also know what you are saying... but ultimately I just dont care..and I have to be right, otherwise whats the point? Im not married so that I can always be right and Im certainly not going give that up for you, even if you were right, which you are clearly not . I just want the 30 day call and put an end to it all, before its too late and we do something silly.
I have in any case realised a realisation that was really staring me in the face ... I need a caterham. it will fit perfectly in the garage along side the Emira, it has and it will stand the test of time, its narrower and inspires more confidence, its lower to the ground and you feel like your doing motorbike speeds when you are not, it holds its value and its the most go kart like car there is. If we can forget the many down sides, not the least of which is crash and probably thats the end, for the car and for you, and just focus on the positives, its truly one of the "best" drivers car out there.. more or less and I live in SPAIN.. crazy not to. Now just need to figure out how to insure a RHD one over here long term as its a xxxx to drive it back and forth to the UK. and LHD ones are insanely expensive by comparison!

ok ok ok..... you were right!

I could call you in 30 days if you want? Might make you happy

 

[emiraspain]

I could call you in 30 days if you want? Might make you happy

like many people on here, nothing will really make me happy apart from being unhappy, thats about as happy as I get!

 

[TomE]

Not really. Without any reference you have no idea what you are getting.
It should have been GT and Sport and followed the exact same referencing as the outgoing Evora if anything.
As I've said tho trying to have one model do everything is a bit of recipe for disaster.
I'm 'lucky' now the cars are delayed as I can drive one before i take delivery. If I had recieved my car this month i could have driven it off the forecourt and within 10 miles realised I had made a massive mistake. That may still be the case but at least now I can either reject the car or change the spec and put it back 6 months...

That's true of any car where the suspension is described as Touring, GT, Sport or Sport+ or whatever, particularly if you can't test drive it as it's not launched yet or (for other manufacturers) the dealer has no demo car in the spec you want to drive. Lotus did give specific reference points on the suspensions: Touring = Evora Series 1 and Sports = Evora GT410. You can test drive both of those - I did at my local dealer.

It sounds to me like you'd be better off buying a used Evora GT410. Something you can test drive now and won't be a "disappointing de-tune". Then wait 6-12 months to drive Touring and Sports V6 and i4 Emiras.

 

[Leonard]

true, but even with less HP the outgoing GTS was the far preferred car by the porsche buyer..... so it exaggerates the point I am trying to make even more, that the older car is usually better at top end. And if you dont like that one, the take the GT3 991 and 992 S, outgoing GT3 had about 500 HP, incoming 992, even later in GTS form has less power.
anyway, I also know what you are saying... but ultimately I just dont care..and I have to be right, otherwise whats the point? Im not married so that I can always be right and Im certainly not going give that up for you, even if you were right, which you are clearly not . I just want the 30 day call and put an end to it all, before its too late and we do something silly.
I have in any case realised a realisation that was really staring me in the face ... I need a caterham. it will fit perfectly in the garage along side the Emira, it has and it will stand the test of time, its narrower and inspires more confidence, its lower to the ground and you feel like your doing motorbike speeds when you are not, it holds its value and its the most go kart like car there is. If we can forget the many down sides, not the least of which is crash and probably thats the end, for the car and for you, and just focus on the positives, its truly one of the "best" drivers car out there.. more or less and I live in SPAIN.. crazy not to. Now just need to figure out how to insure a RHD one over here long term as its a xxxx to drive it back and forth to the UK. and LHD ones are insanely expensive by comparison!

ok ok ok..... you were right!

See now you are coming around to my way of thinking! Swap out the fat FE V6 manual for the i4 Base auto and with the 20k saved you buy a nice hardcore Caterham 7 Superlight etc

 

[TomE]

They are published in the factory service manual. Which as a matter of law must be available for purchase in order to facilitate repair, at least in the US. I would imagine availability for public purchase is true in many other countries as well, but it's a matter of explicit legal requirement for all vehicles sold in the United States. You can't homologate a car for sale here without it.

Some brands publish this information clearly in the vehicle owner's manual as well, at least for certain products. I believe Corvette does so, not sure. Subaru does for the WRX and STI, for example.

Yes, and they will be in the owners handbook for the Emira, like they have been for all previous Lotus cars. And in the dealer service manuals. My point is, most manufacturers don't publish that kind of detail as part of the specs you read on their websites when looking for info on a car.

 

[Leonard]

That's true of any car where the suspension is described as Touring, GT, Sport or Sport+ or whatever, particularly if you can't test drive it as it's not launched yet or (for other manufacturers) the dealer has no demo car in the spec you want to drive. Lotus did give specific reference points on the suspensions: Touring = Evora Series 1 and Sports = Evora GT410. You can test drive both of those - I did at my local dealer.

It sounds to me like you'd be better off buying a used Evora GT410. Something you can test drive now and won't be a "disappointing de-tune". Then wait 6-12 months to drive Touring and Sports V6 and i4 Emiras.

Kinda where I'm at. Just waiting for the right car.. Missed out on a 410 Sport last week.
Re suspension if I use the GR Yaris as an example in the UK they offered a base car, a Convenience pack car and a Circuit pack car. Similar to Lotus but clearly differentiated so that the luxury or hardcore model could not be diluted with options.
I just find the Lotus packaging confusing without any supporting info (or historical referencing) to back up your choices

 

[Jonhklee]

See now you are coming around to my way of thinking! Swap out the fat FE V6 manual for the i4 Base auto and with the 20k saved you buy a nice hardcore Caterham 7 Superlight etc

Exactly….

 

[VL3X]

6 page thread on the new Jethro comments!? I've been on vacation and need a TL;DR or reddit style 'sort by best comment' option...

I read the article and it seemed really harsh at first, but then they tried to sum it up somewhat nicely by saying Lotus fans are a very passionate bunch and that's a good thing.

Either way, his comments and opinions are valid and that's fine to me. The editing of the video and the GT4 showing up was a little uncalled for, but that was their choice and how they decided to publish it. It's ok for some people to not love the Emira. It's ok for some to absolutely hate it and say it looks like it got in a front end collision too. I personally think it's one of the most beautiful cars ever made and a supercharged 400hp mid-engine car with a manual transmission checks all my boxes and sounds like a great time for me. It will really have to drive like poop for me to regret my purchase.

I've never pre-ordered a car before. In fact, I've only ever purchased 2 brand new cars before (owned 14), and that's because my MK7 GTI was marked down ~$6k under MSRP and my MK7 GLI (my wife's.. I guess we're VAG elitists too ) was marked down and 0% interest for the life of the loan! But I digress.. My point is I never ordered a car and spent a year deeply obsessed with it and spent every day dissecting and discussing every aspect of it. I mean, come on guys.. We are a little nutty. The car isn't even out yet and we're demanding the weight of the wheels, swaybar thickness stats, and tune information.

TL;DR: The Emira is going to be awesome and everyone is entitled to their own opinion (and the internet has given everyone a voice to express that opinion).

 

[kitkat]

The pre-production Emira on non-track tyres is not a valid or reasonable thing to compare to a GT4 Porsche. Lotus will release a GT4 Emira and I am more than happy for Jethro Bovingdon - who is not a driving god or even a particularly popular motoring journalist - to compare the Cayman GT4 with the Emira GT4 and I will be interested in that comparison. Not that I the remotest interest in buying a GT4 car which don;t work on the roads I use.

I’m a little bit confused by all these GT4 comments from you.

You do know that Emira GT4 already exists and is orderable right? It also shouldn’t be in any way compared to a standard Porsche GT4.

As for Jethro’s driving qualifications: how many Nürburgring 24 Hour races have you won and in which class?

 

[jmn444]

I’m a little bit confused by all these GT4 comments from you.

You do know that Emira GT4 already exists and is orderable right? It also shouldn’t be in any way compared to a standard Porsche GT4.

As for Jethro’s driving qualifications: how many Nürburgring 24 Hour races have you won and in which class?

Wait you mean a caged non street legal car built solely for competition shouldn’t be compared with a production street car??? That’s just crazy talk lol

Personally I think the gt4 Porsche and the evora gt were direct competitors, so it would be crazy NOT to compare the emira to one, but I guess we should only compare it to cars it can beat lol

 

[emiraspain]

See now you are coming around to my way of thinking! Swap out the fat FE V6 manual for the i4 Base auto and with the 20k saved you buy a nice hardcore Caterham 7 Superlight etc

yes, but I like the sound of the V6 and while I am sure the iphone 4 will have a good sound, will it be AS good? And I would get lazy and leave it in auto all the time and then I would ask myself, why do I have this car.
Im sticking v6, but would like to drive and compare the i4 out of curiosity and I think.... I estimate...I may be wrong, but the base price of 60k.... well, I think it may be 65 in no time at all, with no extras.

Wait you mean a caged non street legal car built solely for competition shouldn’t be compared with a production street car??? That’s just crazy talk lol

Personally I think the gt4 Porsche and the evora gt were direct competitors, so it would be crazy NOT to compare the emira to one, but I guess we should only compare it to cars it can beat lol

but but but, the evora gt is an iteration of the evora, a final iteration, after they had done everything else they could, not the starting point car.... just as the gt4 is an iteration, by a whole different department within porsche, it should be added, of the cayman. Dont you think we should wait and compare the emira "gt" with the porsche gt products?
At the end of the day we can compare anything with anything, but the standard emira is not aimed at the gt4 customer, so I think its a waste of time comparing, clearly it will lose, but if your customer is a 60 year old guy who wants a softer ride, no shouty spoiler and quieter inside, then a touring emira would presumably win him over, over the gt4.
The gt4 is amazing in almost every way, but its for a very select few, in terms of what they expect/need, availability and realistic price. The emira is a base car, a powerful base car admittedly, but its not their "gt" type car for the road/track. I just dont think we should compare their mass market car with porsche's speciality car, but people will and they are free to, but we know the results before the comparison is made.

 

[ADC]

it's not religion, it's just a car

 

[jmn444]

yes, but I like the sound of the V6 and while I am sure the iphone 4 will have a good sound, will it be AS good? And I would get lazy and leave it in auto all the time and then I would ask myself, why do I have this car.
Im sticking v6, but would like to drive and compare the i4 out of curiosity and I think.... I estimate...I may be wrong, but the base price of 60k.... well, I think it may be 65 in no time at all, with no extras.

but but but, the evora gt is an iteration of the evora, a final iteration, after they had done everything else they could, not the starting point car.... just as the gt4 is an iteration, by a whole different department within porsche, it should be added, of the cayman. Dont you think we should wait and compare the emira "gt" with the porsche gt products?
At the end of the day we can compare anything with anything, but the standard emira is not aimed at the gt4 customer, so I think its a waste of time comparing, clearly it will lose, but if your customer is a 60 year old guy who wants a softer ride, no shouty spoiler and quieter inside, then a touring emira would presumably win him over, over the gt4.
The gt4 is amazing in almost every way, but its for a very select few, in terms of what they expect/need, availability and realistic price. The emira is a base car, a powerful base car admittedly, but its not their "gt" type car for the road/track. I just dont think we should compare their mass market car with porsche's speciality car, but people will and they are free to, but we know the results before the comparison is made.

Then why did lotus say the emira is quicker around the track than the evora was?????

 

[Lotustoronto]

Wait you mean a caged non street legal car built solely for competition shouldn’t be compared with a production street car??? That’s just crazy talk lol

Personally I think the gt4 Porsche and the evora gt were direct competitors, so it would be crazy NOT to compare the emira to one, but I guess we should only compare it to cars it can beat lol

Well, firstly the GT4 costs significantly more.

Secondly, once the Emira get's its track focused version (lighter weight, more power, different suspension setup for track) which car would you then compare it against? The GT4, again.

That's where the problem is... You can't take the base Emira (FE is just all the options ticked) to a GT4. How much is a GT4 with every option ticked off? 30K more? 50K more? (without ADM)

Any vehicle should be compared to all the cars in its segment. Price, mid-engine, power to weight ratio etc. GT4 is a class above. Nobody compares a base 992 911 competition to a GT3.

It would be like taking a new C8 corvette and doing a track comparison with a GT3 on track. Should be the Z06 vs GT3. Have not seen any C8 vs GT3 on track.... I wonder why. Here is a video of a drag race of what I am talking about....it's not even close. On track it would be an embarrassment. Now when the new z06 comes out...different story. Same applies to the Emira and its competition.

 

[Yachtie]

yes, but I like the sound of the V6 and while I am sure the iphone 4 will have a good sound, will it be AS good? And I would get lazy and leave it in auto all the time and then I would ask myself, why do I have this car.
Im sticking v6, but would like to drive and compare the i4 out of curiosity and I think.... I estimate...I may be wrong, but the base price of 60k.... well, I think it may be 65 in no time at all, with no extras.

but but but, the evora gt is an iteration of the evora, a final iteration, after they had done everything else they could, not the starting point car.... just as the gt4 is an iteration, by a whole different department within porsche, it should be added, of the cayman. Dont you think we should wait and compare the emira "gt" with the porsche gt products?
At the end of the day we can compare anything with anything, but the standard emira is not aimed at the gt4 customer, so I think its a waste of time comparing, clearly it will lose, but if your customer is a 60 year old guy who wants a softer ride, no shouty spoiler and quieter inside, then a touring emira would presumably win him over, over the gt4.
The gt4 is amazing in almost every way, but its for a very select few, in terms of what they expect/need, availability and realistic price. The emira is a base car, a powerful base car admittedly, but its not their "gt" type car for the road/track. I just dont think we should compare their mass market car with porsche's speciality car, but people will and they are free to, but we know the results before the comparison is made.

At the end of the day we can compare anything with anything, but the standard emira is not aimed at the gt4 customer, so I think its a waste of time comparing, clearly it will lose, but if your customer is a 60 year old guy who wants a softer ride, no shouty spoiler and quieter inside, then a touring emira would presumably win him over, over the gt4.

Exactly!! This is me!!!!

 

[Lotustoronto]

Then why did lotus say the emira is quicker around the track than the evora was?????

I would love to know what the lap time of a sport suspension, cup tire Emira vs a GT4 with Jethro behind the wheel?