Lotus Boss Quits

[brainf18]

I think this is key to Lotus' future. If they want to be a real car company in the US, they need to have a broader B&M presence. Partnering up with Volvo - kind of like Jaguar/Range Rover would make a lot of sense. And get out of the mom and pop exotic car shops that carry Lambos and Ferraris. Volvo who is promoting Polestar on the side may not be open to this though. Polestar is making some incredible EVs.

I agree the "boutique" sales network isn't ideal for a brand that wants to go mainstream...Volvo is owned by Geely so if they wanted to make Volvo a Lotus service provider (not dealer) I don't think Volvo would be able to say no.

 

[seriously]

I agree the "boutique" sales network isn't ideal for a brand that wants to go mainstream...Volvo is owned by Geely so if they wanted to make Volvo a Lotus service provider (not dealer) I don't thing Volvo would be able to say no.

Yes, "Lotus Service Center" would be great and seemingly little downside. Dealerships make money on this side of the business. However, Lotus still needs to figure out how to sell cars and take care of their customers- the current boutique sales network is not good enough. Maybe they try to go DTC like Tesla and Polestar, but they NEED to get customer service right or that goes no where. They don't know how to do customer service and should hire talent from other car companies that know what it takes to get there.

 

[Lotustoronto]

@brainf18 and @seriously - I have to politely disagree with the Volvo dealer partnership. The obvious one being polestar an all EV company would be counter-intutive and ultimately the Volvo buyer is NOT a Lotus buyer. Synergies not there IMO.

I think Geely bought in a 5% share into Aston Martin for a reason. Being the EV version of the British lineups makes more sense from a marketing perspective. It is performance orientated and does not overlap with any offerings from other British marquees. Also, the LVMH connection shows it wants the customer that would purchase a DBX, but wants an EV. Mind you, Aston has LESS dealers than Lotus in the US and worldwide. So the synergies for expanded network won't come from AM. The Lotus network doesn't need to be as expansive as say Ford or BMW but it will need to be larger than it is today. I can even argue that the current dealer levels are enough, IF the dealers providing the service were outstanding and of a very high caliber. Some are, but most are of a lower caliber trying to sell to the Range Rover / Porsche crowd.... just won't work.

Porsche has the right mix with around 200 dealers in the US and about 22 in Canada. Lotus can probably do well with 100 or so US dealers.

Lotus won't be marketed along Volvo and will almost certainly either be stand alone boutique locations or attached to other luxury marquees and I think it's the right decision. They just need a plan to give the customer a radically improved experience, everything I have seen feels half assed.

 

[GetawayDriving]

I think he's seen the EV handwriting on the wall, and knows that Geely's making a huge mistake to go EV only. All the big players are backing way off the EV train, and restarting their ICE production facilities. Hybrid is going to be the way to go for a long ways into the foreseeable future.

Geely simply doesn't have the other very necessary pieces in place to go all-in for being a luxury only brand. They need to learn from the Emira. Looks like a top luxury car, but not priced that way. Geely should aim for the middle of the market bell curve, not the very slim and highly competitive end of it. Get vehicles with base models in the $75k-$95k range that are decent enough as base models. With options they can go above that, but being able to show and sell good-looking vehicles that are reachable by the bigger segment of the marketplace is the smart way to go.

I disagree with the handwriting on the wall. By my last count, more than 45 countries and 17 U.S. states still have restrictions or outright bans on the sale of new gasoline vehicles by 2035. EV growth has slowed, but still outpaces gasoline cars. This varies heavily by market.

The moment we're experiencing is less about aversion to EVs and more about aversion to risk. With interest rates high and inflation still reverberating through the wallets of many families, the risk to spend tens of thousands of dollars on new technology is less tenable, especially when that technology still comes at a premium vs. gasoline counterparts. The product isn't that good, either. It seems to be Tesla, Porsche, and Hyundai Group leading the way and everyone else still marketing mediocre 1st generation product. There are other exceptions, but the casual buyer doesn't know the difference. The casual buyers look at product from car companies they know and trust like Toyota, Honda and Mazda, and they're not impressed.

Casual buyers are increasingly the focus. In many markets including the U.S., we are transitioning out of early adopters and into an early majority buyer. That's a very different persona who is less informed and less savvy with technology and change. Automakers have really dropped the ball in clearly communicating EV capabilities, (and in the US there are a whole host of problems at the dealer level) and buyers quickly get overwhelmed and resort to what's familiar.

Geely saw an opportunity to get a jump on the big players in the electrification space, and they were correct in that assessment. The Geely product is very strong relative to competitors, putting them in that tier along with Tesla / Porsche / Hyundai which is a stronger position than if they were to go toe-to-toe with Porsche on ICE powertrains.

The biggest problem with Geely aiming Lotus at the middle of the market, is that's where Polestar lives. Lotus is meant to be the halo property. The product seems good enough. It seems someone is dropping the ball on the rest of the owner experience. I visited my local Lotus service center (shared with Aston Martin) last weekend and the place looked more like derelict Mattress Warehouse than a luxury experience. That just won't do when Porsche has a glistening palace down the block.

 

[cyanmauve]

In a way, isn't the ongoing instability Lotus being the most possibly Lotus they could be?

 

[FlyNavy01]

LOL at people using the words "authoritarian" when talking about government EV incentives. What an insult to people who have actually lived under an authoritarian regime.

I'm personally indifferent about the future of Lotus after the short 36 month warranty expires on my car. The only downside would be future parts availability, but most of the important ones come from Volvo or Toyota anyways.

 

[Eagle7]

I disagree with the handwriting on the wall. By my last count, more than 45 countries and 17 U.S. states still have restrictions or outright bans on the sale of new gasoline vehicles by 2035. EV growth has slowed, but still outpaces gasoline cars. This varies heavily by market.

The moment we're experiencing is less about aversion to EVs and more about aversion to risk. With interest rates high and inflation still reverberating through the wallets of many families, the risk to spend tens of thousands of dollars on new technology is less tenable, especially when that technology still comes at a premium vs. gasoline counterparts. The product isn't that good, either. It seems to be Tesla, Porsche, and Hyundai Group leading the way and everyone else still marketing mediocre 1st generation product. There are other exceptions, but the casual buyer doesn't know the difference. The casual buyers look at product from car companies they know and trust like Toyota, Honda and Mazda, and they're not impressed.

Casual buyers are increasingly the focus. In many markets including the U.S., we are transitioning out of early adopters and into an early majority buyer. That's a very different persona who is less informed and less savvy with technology and change. Automakers have really dropped the ball in clearly communicating EV capabilities, (and in the US there are a whole host of problems at the dealer level) and buyers quickly get overwhelmed and resort to what's familiar.

Geely saw an opportunity to get a jump on the big players in the electrification space, and they were correct in that assessment. The Geely product is very strong relative to competitors, putting them in that tier along with Tesla / Porsche / Hyundai which is a stronger position than if they were to go toe-to-toe with Porsche on ICE powertrains.

The biggest problem with Geely aiming Lotus at the middle of the market, is that's where Polestar lives. Lotus is meant to be the halo property. The product seems good enough. It seems someone is dropping the ball on the rest of the owner experience. I visited my local Lotus service center (shared with Aston Martin) last weekend and the place looked more like derelict Mattress Warehouse than a luxury experience. That just won't do when Porsche has a glistening palace down the block.

Yes they do have restrictions, which is precisely the problem. Nobody asked the customer. They decided what the customer can or can't have, proudly announced it like it was a done deal, essentially forced manufacturers to dance to their music, then expected the customers would just 'do as they're told'. Now they're in shock as they're finally getting the message from the customers. They're not buying. The dealers themselves have been sending letters to the government agencies begging to delay the mandates. Their lots are full of EV's that just aren't selling. Manufacturers are scaling back on production because they're not selling. They have fields of cars just sitting there that they can't ship to dealers, because the dealer's lots are already full of EV's that aren't selling.

It's not just a new technology issue. There's real costs and downsides which those who bought are now finding out. They are NOT environmentally friendly. Getting the minerals and resources to make these cars is anything but environmentally friendly, and those resources are finite, not to mention the political issues. China owns and controls over 70% of the rare earth mineral mines needed to make batteries, and they make the majority of the batteries for all these EV's. EV's are significantly heavier than traditional gas vehicles, and it's taking a toll on the roadways. This is going to add more costs to repair and reinforce them, which means taxes to pay for it. The increased weight is harder on tires, and they're scrubbing off particulate into the air at a higher rate than lighter vehicles do, not to mention the cost of replacing those expensive tires. Insurance companies are now raising their rates because even if you don't own an EV, if you hit one the costs of repair are astronomically higher than a gas vehicle. We just got a 17% increase in our vehicle insurance rates because of this very issue.

EV's have range and charging issues in cold climates. The infrastructure isn't ready for an all electric world, and there doesn't seem to be any viable plans in place to increase electricity generation. Wind and solar are woefully inadequate, and the maintenance on those systems isn't cheap at all. Wind and solar increase temperature and environmental impacts in the surrounding areas where they've been built. Coal is easy to do and cheap, but it's the boogie man. Can't use that! The most practical and feasible method right now is nuclear power, but the environmentalists don't want that either, so now what? What's their plan?

I predict the 'mandates' are going to get pushed back at least 10 years, while committees haggle and discuss how to upgrade the infrastructure. We're just simply not ready for a full court press to convert everything everywhere over to electric right now, and it's going to take years before we're even close.

Yeah, Geely's position is so strong they sold 40 electric vehicles in a month? That's JUST a bit short of the 150,000 a year they were expecting. All the great plans of those at the top keep failing to take into account the customer. It doesn't matter what they think is a great idea if the customer decides not to buy it. What Geely EV sold in one month, Lotus Hethel is producing and selling every 2 days. There's a BIG message and clue there. Showing me a great vehicle that I might be interested in, but there's nowhere within hundreds of miles for me to look at one is not a winning strategy. Every dealer within 20 minutes of my house has EV's for me to look at, except Lotus who's hundreds of miles away.

What Geely should have done and still needs to do is build out the customer interface infrastructure while building a new vehicle portfolio, and time it so the infrastructure opens a month before the vehicles start to be rolled out. BE READY, which they clearly weren't and still aren't even after several years now. Just being EV doesn't automatically guarantee success, despite government orders and dictates.

 

[brainf18]

Just one issue with EV's. They are too heavy for existing highway infrastructure and safety systems. Weight isn't just a safety issue...EV's are causing increased and accelerated wear on highways, potholes etc. Not to mention the carbon footprint required to mine all the battery materials for an EV is equal to a HD diesel truck with 100k miles on the road.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgVnC1_rnns
EV's too heavy for highway safety

 

[Lotustoronto]

Just one issue with EV's. They are too heavy for existing highway infrastructure and safety systems. Weight isn't just a safety issue...EV's are causing increased and accelerated wear on highways, potholes etc. Not to mention the carbon footprint required to mine all the battery materials for an EV is equal to a HD diesel truck with 100k miles on the road.
View attachment 41905EV's too heavy for highway safety

Yes they do have restrictions, which is precisely the problem. Nobody asked the customer. They decided what the customer can or can't have, proudly announced it like it was a done deal, essentially forced manufacturers to dance to their music, then expected the customers would just 'do as they're told'. Now they're in shock as they're finally getting the message from the customers. They're not buying. The dealers themselves have been sending letters to the government agencies begging to delay the mandates. Their lots are full of EV's that just aren't selling. Manufacturers are scaling back on production because they're not selling. They have fields of cars just sitting there that they can't ship to dealers, because the dealer's lots are already full of EV's that aren't selling.

It's not just a new technology issue. There's real costs and downsides which those who bought are now finding out. They are NOT environmentally friendly. Getting the minerals and resources to make these cars is anything but environmentally friendly, and those resources are finite, not to mention the political issues. China owns and controls over 70% of the rare earth mineral mines needed to make batteries, and they make the majority of the batteries for all these EV's. EV's are significantly heavier than traditional gas vehicles, and it's taking a toll on the roadways. This is going to add more costs to repair and reinforce them, which means taxes to pay for it. The increased weight is harder on tires, and they're scrubbing off particulate into the air at a higher rate than lighter vehicles do, not to mention the cost of replacing those expensive tires. Insurance companies are now raising their rates because even if you don't own an EV, if you hit one the costs of repair are astronomically higher than a gas vehicle. We just got a 17% increase in our vehicle insurance rates because of this very issue.

EV's have range and charging issues in cold climates. The infrastructure isn't ready for an all electric world, and there doesn't seem to be any viable plans in place to increase electricity generation. Wind and solar are woefully inadequate, and the maintenance on those systems isn't cheap at all. Wind and solar increase temperature and environmental impacts in the surrounding areas where they've been built. Coal is easy to do and cheap, but it's the boogie man. Can't use that! The most practical and feasible method right now is nuclear power, but the environmentalists don't want that either, so now what? What's their plan?

I predict the 'mandates' are going to get pushed back at least 10 years, while committees haggle and discuss how to upgrade the infrastructure. We're just simply not ready for a full court press to convert everything everywhere over to electric right now, and it's going to take years before we're even close.

Yeah, Geely's position is so strong they sold 40 electric vehicles in a month? That's JUST a bit short of the 150,000 a year they were expecting. All the great plans of those at the top keep failing to take into account the customer. It doesn't matter what they think is a great idea if the customer decides not to buy it. What Geely EV sold in one month, Lotus Hethel is producing and selling every 2 days. There's a BIG message and clue there. Showing me a great vehicle that I might be interested in, but there's nowhere within hundreds of miles for me to look at one is not a winning strategy. Every dealer within 20 minutes of my house has EV's for me to look at, except Lotus who's hundreds of miles away.

What Geely should have done and still needs to do is build out the customer interface infrastructure while building a new vehicle portfolio, and time it so the infrastructure opens a month before the vehicles start to be rolled out. BE READY, which they clearly weren't and still aren't even after several years now. Just being EV doesn't automatically guarantee success, despite government orders and dictates.

You guys aren't wrong... But the gasoline engine was bad for the planet too... far worse than horses that came before it. The only way the tech gets better is if they have funding and real world experience from users. We are at the beginning and it's not perfect by any means. EV's of today will look archaic in 30 years. Hopefully they are a lot lighter by then too!

 

[Rudolph]

Just one issue with EV's. They are too heavy for existing highway infrastructure and safety systems. Weight isn't just a safety issue...EV's are causing increased and accelerated wear on highways, potholes etc. Not to mention the carbon footprint required to mine all the battery materials for an EV is equal to a HD diesel truck with 100k miles on the road.
View attachment 41905EV's too heavy for highway safety

* * * * *
In the Netherlands last years, heavy EV's coming of the road and hitting houses are occuring severe damage to those houses whwereas when this happned in the past wih CE vehicles the damage was minor.......

https://i.postimg.cc/wxkwWJR2/522396-acdc015-1.webp

 

[wallstbear]

The world is split into two camps right now: the "EVs are the futures; gas cars are doomed" and "EV market is way too crowded and gas cars aren't going away" .

Frankly most of the automotive world is teetering between these two camps not necessarily knowing what will be the real future. So is this board.

But Geely/Lotus is heavily invested in the first camp and gambling its future on it. This is the biggest variable.

In addition, as I have said before, hardcore driving purists aren't great business (not trying to knock ourselves here). The brand has to morph into a "driving pleasure + luxury" image to appeal to the posers. I do not mean it in a bad way. I am probably 30% poser and I can admit it. That said, the Chinese management/marketing team are very different than those in Hessel. How do they integrate the philosophy into a united version is a huge challenge.

With the EV market as crowded as it is today, you gotta have a unique and strong brand image in order to set yourself apart. Otherwise you get buried pretty quickly. There are a dozen new models coming out almost every other week. I just don't see that happening.

Plus let's not pretend that the global decoupling does not have something to do with all this either.

All that being said, if the Emira can essentially maintain its own "mini-brand within a brand" and sell a respectable amount of units, we will still have a somewhat iconic little driver's car to have fun with.

When I see an Eletre in my Emira (not that I see it very often), i have that feeling of seeing a very remote cousin -- i.e., I feel almost morally compelled to feel some kind of bond due to our bloodlines, but I just don't feel very much of it.

 

[Fasttoys]

I am a gas car guy & felt I would be the last to convert to EV’s amongst my car groups. I moved into a daily driver Audi Etron Prestige back in 2021, now I am on my 2nd EV and it’s an Audi GT. I love it and for a daily driver around town (250 miles max driven per day) no way I am going back to ICE. When I drive the Emira after being in my Etron GT, it makes the Emira power delivery feel like a 2 stroke 5 hp lawn mower motor. The Emira is more engaging and in certain road conditions a lot more fun to drive.
My biggest concern once we have a larger adoption EV rate around the world, we will need energy sources to power them, not sure we have the infrastructure. For instant speed it’s impossible to beat an EV, look at Lotus & heck the newly released Tesla 3 will beat almost 95% of ever ICE car in production today.

 

[Eagle7]

The world is split into two camps right now: the "EVs are the futures; gas cars are doomed" and "EV market is way too crowded and gas cars aren't going away" .

Frankly most of the automotive world is teetering between these two camps not necessarily knowing what will be the real future. So is this board.

But Geely/Lotus is heavily invested in the first camp and gambling its future on it. This is the biggest variable.

In addition, as I have said before, hardcore driving purists aren't great business (not trying to knock ourselves here). The brand has to morph into a "driving pleasure + luxury" image to appeal to the posers. I do not mean it in a bad way. I am probably 30% poser and I can admit it. That said, the Chinese management/marketing team are very different than those in Hessel. How do they integrate the philosophy into a united version is a huge challenge.

With the EV market as crowded as it is today, you gotta have a unique and strong brand image in order to set yourself apart. Otherwise you get buried pretty quickly. There are a dozen new models coming out almost every other week. I just don't see that happening.

Plus let's not pretend that the global decoupling does not have something to do with all this either.

All that being said, if the Emira can essentially maintain its own "mini-brand within a brand" and sell a respectable amount of units, we will still have a somewhat iconic little driver's car to have fun with.

When I see an Eletre in my Emira (not that I see it very often), i have that feeling of seeing a very remote cousin -- i.e., I feel almost morally compelled to feel some kind of bond due to our bloodlines, but I just don't feel very much of it.

I'm in the middle. I see where EV has it's place, and that would be in the densely populated areas (cities, big cities) where most of the travel is relatively short distances. If they built them for that only, not going on long trips with them, they could be lighter, cheaper, and more affordable. The heaviest use of fuel is in around town short trips. This is where the EV has it's place.

For long trips, and especially freight, gas is far better. That's the use where vehicles get the best gas mileage too.

The problem is where it seems to be in just about everything right now, extremism. Everything has to be an extreme, black or white, with us or against us, our way or no way, etc. Moderate use of electric in the right venues, would require less infrastructure upgrades, use less resources (which extends the use of those same resources), and produce less emissions in cities where it's the most needed.

We need more moderate solutions, and less extremism.

 

[brainf18]

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a60605756/lotus-needs-another-new-boss/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR16Gg71EmaoYNpNnmUx2ykYje9zTE9pG5PFmoqF16YrqM3NEkOlJAPlj_0_aem_Afcl6tVf5e5eI-IMXZI8FC9byMDwsaDuTpwO9bS1iRj7d_JtRmLxXXAzQnZw9aaLBQmYd8poaM_dY7fuUlfloajo

 

[Eagle7]

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a60605756/lotus-needs-another-new-boss/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR16Gg71EmaoYNpNnmUx2ykYje9zTE9pG5PFmoqF16YrqM3NEkOlJAPlj_0_aem_Afcl6tVf5e5eI-IMXZI8FC9byMDwsaDuTpwO9bS1iRj7d_JtRmLxXXAzQnZw9aaLBQmYd8poaM_dY7fuUlfloajo

View attachment 41923

OMG they're shutting down the Hethel design studio and consolidating it with the Coventry studio? The one that designed the Eletre and Emeya? BIG BIG MISTAKE LOTUS. The ONLY reason you have anything viable at all at the moment is because Carr's Hethel Design Group created the Emira. Without that car, you'd probably already be out of business. If you had shown the Eletre at the FOS in July of 2021 instead of the Emira, you'd be sunk already.

DON'T BE STUPID! Keep Hethel intact, and put Carr and his team in charge of ALL vehicle design. LOOKS SELL. You may think the Eletre is great because the front looks like the mask of a samurai warrior, but the sales numbers should wake you up. Selling only 40 EV cars in a month is an absolute disaster.

I swear I don't know what passes for IQ in upper management in corporations anymore. I watched this same type of stupidity throw away the fantastic Alfa Romeo Giulia, and Alfa's presence in the U.S. Mary Barra at GM pretty much threw away the Camaro which went from #1 in muscle car sales to a distant #3 behind Dodge and Ford. They're discontinuing it this year. No more Camaro.

These people just simply don't seem to understand customers. Apparently all they look at is PowerPoints, spreadsheets and sales fantasy projections. Then you have someone like Steve Jobs, who had this uncanny knack for figuring out what the customers would like, because he thought of things he himself would want to use and how to use them. Huge volumes of sales followed.

I think most of these upper management types live in such a cocoon of affluence, they have no idea what the real world is like for everyone else. Glad I'm getting my Emira now, with the Toyota V6 and manual.

 

[Fasttoys]

OMG they're shutting down the Hethel design studio and consolidating it with the Coventry studio? The one that designed the Eletre and Emeya? BIG BIG MISTAKE LOTUS. The ONLY reason you have anything viable at all at the moment is because Carr's Hethel Design Group created the Emira. Without that car, you'd probably already be out of business. If you had shown the Eletre at the FOS in July of 2021 instead of the Emira, you'd be sunk already.

DON'T BE STUPID! Keep Hethel intact, and put Carr and his team in charge of ALL vehicle design. LOOKS SELL. You may think the Eletre is great because the front looks like the mask of a samurai warrior, but the sales numbers should wake you up. Selling only 40 EV cars in a month is an absolute disaster.

I swear I don't know what passes for IQ in upper management in corporations anymore. I watched this same type of stupidity throw away the fantastic Alfa Romeo Giulia, and Alfa's presence in the U.S. Mary Barra at GM pretty much threw away the Camaro which went from #1 in muscle car sales to a distant #3 behind Dodge and Ford. They're discontinuing it this year. No more Camaro.

These people just simply don't seem to understand customers. Apparently all they look at is PowerPoints, spreadsheets and sales fantasy projections. Then you have someone like Steve Jobs, who had this uncanny knack for figuring out what the customers would like, because he thought of things he himself would want to use and how to use them. Huge volumes of sales followed.

I think most of these upper management types live in such a cocoon of affluence, they have no idea what the real world is like for everyone else. Glad I'm getting my Emira now, with the Toyota V6 and manual.

Reminds me of a song: Another One Bites the Dust" the song by the British rock band Queen.

 

[Eagle7]

Reminds me of a song: Another One Bites the Dust" the song by the British rock band Queen.

God I hope not. Lotus Hethel finally gets to make a stunning car, and has more orders for them than anything they've ever made. They just need to carry the Emira design philosophy over into using hybrid technology and it would be terrific. They're just starting to get their act together. It would be horrible if Geely aborts them right now for a mis-guided push to only EV's. They need to hedge their bets.

I just saw this article: https://justthenews.com/politics-po...h-electric-vehicle-it-sold-first-quarter-2024 and I know that GM has lost a boatload too. Hertz just lost another $200 million and are abandoning EV's. However Honda has just announced they're investing something like $14 billion into EV's. It's all nuts.

 

[Lotustoronto]

@Eagle7 - It is possible that Carr and the Emira design team is just moving locations. My guess is that the new Coventry studio is much more upgraded and using better, newer technology and updating Hethel would just cost more money. Converging the two units is a good idea, as long as the majority of the design teams stay intact. I see this as more as "we built all this new stuff at Coventry, come work over here and use it" - more so than firing Carr and associates.

 

[dgrace]

The article didn’t quite go there, but I’ll call it now: there will be no Type 135.

 

[Eagle7]

@Eagle7 - It is possible that Carr and the Emira design team is just moving locations. My guess is that the new Coventry studio is much more upgraded and using better, newer technology and updating Hethel would just cost more money. Converging the two units is a good idea, as long as the majority of the design teams stay intact. I see this as more as "we built all this new stuff at Coventry, come work over here and use it" - more so than firing Carr and associates.

I don't know that they're firing Carr, I doubt it, but based on what we've seen from Lotus the past 3 years, what do you think? I'm probably more gracious in my views of Lotus than most, but I understand how corporate management works, and Lotus is now part of a corporation. Corporations tend to be heavily ego and politics based. They form up into departmental fiefs and kingdoms, which makes them sluggish and slow to adapt.

I hope something good comes out of this, but so far it doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.