More details for KEF Audio

[Nova]

dB is volume, not sound quality. Breaking in a speaker does not appreciably increase its volume, it does however improve its ability to reproduce sound. The stretching of the speaker cone helps it to gain resilience and response speed, which enables it to respond fast enough to respond to the demands of the analog signal.

I don't see how this is possible. Can you link to some literature that describes this effect?

 

[Eagle7]

I don't see how this is possible. Can you link to some literature that describes this effect?

I don't have any reference link I can refer you to off the top of my head, but I'm sure if you did a search, especially on speaker cone materials, you'll find what you're looking for.

It's essentially the same as muscle fibers. Runners never go out and immediately try to run at competitive speeds until they've stretched their muscles and warmed them up, otherwise they wouldn't be able to run as fast, and actually risk injury.

Think of it like breaking in a pair of jeans, or leather shoes, etc. Materials that stretch repeatedly need to be worn-in to make them compliant.

 

[TRX250EX]

I'm no Audio expert but been using KEF audio for 15 years now at home, it was one of reasons I got excited for Emira tbh and for Lotus brand overall hence even Eletre I ordered, that aside from my knowledge with KEF basically is that Uni-Q drivers need run in period to get to optimum level as they become more "free" I will say they get frequency responses better, does the car comes pre run in? I don't think so.

As for coupe cars not being optimal that's not the case, McLaren have one of best sounding systems in their GT with B&W, infact 2 seater cars have an advantage which is the less the seats the easier it's to place the drivers and optimise the signals, the only cars have more advantage are SUVs due to drivers being placed at bigger height difference creating more 3D space + more controlled Bass hence why I think Eletre will be great audio car and maybe the best in the market.

Why Eletre might be best? Cause Uni-Q drivers well known for their small distance sound stage, normal drivers require further distance to get similar sound stage levels, in a car you don't have that distance freedom so Uni-Q might be game changer.

Finally worst thing about sports car is ambient sound, Bentley GT or Rolls Royce Ghost despite being coupe have one of best sounding systems due to sound deadening but these sport/super cars don't have, so test your audio at full stop instead with engine off than on the move to decide it's weakness, for Emira I don't know exactly it's drivers quality but I think only mid range is the actual Uni-Q driver and rest are average units taken from other brands or so? I'm not sure but that's what I heard.

Overall I will be disappointed if Eletre had audio anything lower than top tier, but Emira I won't care much, sound deadening alone bigger difference than any speaker system

 

[VL3X]

Someone needs to send this thread to KEF and cc Lotus. I would love to have an AMA from KEF (actually an AMA from anyone at Lotus would be amazing in general).

As far as comparison, I think it'd be fair to compare the Evora base system (not sure if there was a premium audio option with the Evora) to the Emira's KEF system (doubt we'll get base Emira system reviews until late next year at the earliest).

 

[kitkat]

I'm just just going to live with the fact that it isn't horrible and isn't great.

 

[Nova]

I don't have any reference link I can refer you to off the top of my head, but I'm sure if you did a search, especially on speaker cone materials, you'll find what you're looking for.

It's essentially the same as muscle fibers. Runners never go out and immediately try to run at competitive speeds until they've stretched their muscles and warmed them up, otherwise they wouldn't be able to run as fast, and actually risk injury.

Think of it like breaking in a pair of jeans, or leather shoes, etc. Materials that stretch repeatedly need to be worn-in to make them compliant.

I understand your point, but it doesn't really apply to speaker drivers, and as such, I can't find any actual authoritative materials that would support such a claim. Speaker drivers substantially have three operation regions: electrically damped high loss region - typically below Fs; rigid body region roughly between Fs and the first cone break-up mode; and cone breakup region dominated by modal resonances. Competent speaker designs generally use crossovers to limit a driver's operation to within its rigid body region of operation. In the rigid body region, the elasticity modulus of the cone material is largely irrelevant, and the onset of cone breakup is more so a function of cone geometry than material. Once the cone geometry is determined, increasing the elasticity of the cone material (making it softer like a pair of jeans), only serves to increase the number of modes and lower the peaks of dominant modes in the break-up region. It has little to no effect in the rigid body region. I'm of course always open to learning.

 

[Nova]

Someone needs to send this thread to KEF and cc Lotus. I would love to have an AMA from KEF (actually an AMA from anyone at Lotus would be amazing in general).

As far as comparison, I think it'd be fair to compare the Evora base system (not sure if there was a premium audio option with the Evora) to the Emira's KEF system (doubt we'll get base Emira system reviews until late next year at the earliest).

Speaking from experience, I don't believe it is helpful for companies to engage with end users on an open platform, especially something like an AMA session. It may help some of the users to get their questions answered, but many more people will be entirely unsatisfied. The net sum effect is usually negative. I do encourage KEF and Lotus to release some more information about the system, but only to a degree. It's far better to leave 100 people guessing than cause 30 people to become vocally negative about the product.

 

[New to Lotus]

How many people do you think will pay extra for kef?

 

[Mctaff]

I, as with all subjects on here, am NO expert, and dont pretend to be at all. There are some experts on here and some who seem to know a great deal about everything, Stephen Fry makes me feel humble, but I didnt expect the same on here.. haha
However, I do try to use my common sense and my common sense, for what it's worth, tells me that a car audio speaker is NOT the same as a home speaker in many aspects, least of all in their respective sizes. A car audio speaker is a fraction of the size of a home system, many of which are almost the height of the entire car! And so drawing any conclusions from the experience from one to the other I feel is dangerous and incorrect. The mechanics of the stretching of a large piece of material is very different to that of a small piece for various reasons.....

I can understand that the material in the speaker has to stretch over the much larger cones in peoples VERY expensive home hifi systems and that this may have an affect over a few hours, once this material has loosened off. Once settled in, maybe the change in tension in the material improves sound, although its not guaranteed and if anything it may just prevent a decrease in sound quality later on. However, this change in tension will be totally different on a much smaller amount of material. Imagine Barbie's underwear, compared to a grown woman.... surely we can work that analogy in there somewhere... ok maybe not.

In any case, a bit of research with the "real experts", ie those who make their living testing and researching such things leads to the following conclusion..... It would seem very dubious and basically incorrect that a car stereo audio system needs to be run in..or that there will be any discernible difference after several hours, or weeks of running in etc.

My source is below and after far more tests than any of us on here will ever run, they show that we cant compare a car system to a home system and that if the Emira's Kef sound is not great to start with, it is highly unlikely to improve, but you are more than likely to simply get used to it. Any arguments can be directed at the experts at bestcaraudio... not to me, and again, I know nothing.

In terms of FM radio ect, it seems incredible Lotus have not overcome a good contact for the antenna, they are not the only auto maker to use these types of materials in their cars and as in most problems they experience, boots closing, door seals etc, its not rocket science and you would have thought someone there who knew the Evora had an issue would have said "lets get the radio reception right on this car"..... No excuses in the 2020's for this crap, FM has been around for a while......not a new tech, not a new problem

Do You Need to Break Car Audio Speakers In Slowly?

We’ve seen it said many times that you have to slowly ramp up the power to new speakers to break them in. Maybe? Maybe not.

www.bestcaraudio.com

I’ve never experienced a noticeable difference after run in with high end home hifi

 

[CDM1855]

Some Facts About Speaker Break-In

We break down the science behind speaker break-in. Yes, speaker break-in is a thing, and yes, you will hear a difference in your new speakers after playing them for a while.

us.kef.com

 

[Mctaff]

Kef system in my bedroom sounded no different over time

 

[emiraspain]

Kef system in my bedroom sounded no different over time

maybe you were too busy to notice? haha

 

[Nova]

Some Facts About Speaker Break-In

We break down the science behind speaker break-in. Yes, speaker break-in is a thing, and yes, you will hear a difference in your new speakers after playing them for a while.

us.kef.com

To me, this sounds like the marketing folks got a hold of some summary comments from their engineer(s) and proceeded to significantly exaggerate the effect of driver break-in. It's a fact that drivers do break-in whereby the suspension becomes more compliant. This effect is measurable, repeatable and even audible under controlled test conditions. This is not in dispute. However, there is no evidence that slight changes in the compliance of a speaker's suspension all of a sudden make it sound "more open", whatever that even means.

Sure, a 1dB increase in the bass output of a speaker will indeed make it sound "fuller", "richer", "warmer", etc, but to a noticeable during normal listening? That's arguable. This article takes some wild liberties in conveying the magnitude of this effect.

One can approximate this effect with the tone control or EQ on their sound system. Add 1dB centered on 50Hz. Toggle that on and off. It's just not that noticeable.

 

[Mctaff]

FACT Exactly this! ^^^

 

[ADC]

How many people do you think will pay extra for kef?

All First Edition buyers?

(which is why some people are perhaps feeling a bit let down by the perceived quality)

 

[Eagle7]

I understand your point, but it doesn't really apply to speaker drivers, and as such, I can't find any actual authoritative materials that would support such a claim. Speaker drivers substantially have three operation regions: electrically damped high loss region - typically below Fs; rigid body region roughly between Fs and the first cone break-up mode; and cone breakup region dominated by modal resonances. Competent speaker designs generally use crossovers to limit a driver's operation to within its rigid body region of operation. In the rigid body region, the elasticity modulus of the cone material is largely irrelevant, and the onset of cone breakup is more so a function of cone geometry than material. Once the cone geometry is determined, increasing the elasticity of the cone material (making it softer like a pair of jeans), only serves to increase the number of modes and lower the peaks of dominant modes in the break-up region. It has little to no effect in the rigid body region. I'm of course always open to learning.

To my knowledge it isn't the speaker drivers that need breaking in, as much as it's the speaker cones; and that's dependent on the material they're made of. The drivers are connected to the cone and push or pull on it, causing it to move. The ability of the cone to respond to the driver determines how good it is at reproducing sound sources.

Crossovers were originally created to not only take the load off of a single speaker trying to do it all, but to specialize speakers for different frequency ranges. Bass frequencies are low, slow and cause a speaker cone to move a lot. If that same speaker is also trying to reproduce the fast tiny movements of high frequencies, that's a problem for a single speaker. Crossovers enabled designers to limit frequency ranges to speakers designed for each designated range, usually 3; a bass, mid range and high frequency. This was called 'high fidelity' compared to the typical single speakers in the radios we all had and were used to listening to. This was done with 3 separate speakers; the bass speakers were the largest because their cones needed to move the most; mid-range were smaller, and tweeters were the smallest because their cones moved the smallest amount, but also the fastest. This was all in the early days when speaker cones were made of paper. I remember blowing out speakers by playing things too loud, which you could easily do with electric guitar amps. You'd hear a pop, and then crackling garbage. It was not a fun moment. Speakers could be re-coned, but usually you'd just buy a new one and replace the old one. Cheap guitar amps had cheap speakers with small magnets. The expensive amps had better speakers with bigger magnets, and they were heavy. Lift a cheap Sears Silvertone amp, then lift a Fender Twin Reverb and you knew right away why the Fender cost more.

Materials today are so much more advanced compared to back then, but the same principles still apply. Because the new materials are stiffer, they can respond faster, but also still benefit from material fiber stretch to loosen them up. I'm talking about the cones, not the driver cores. This doesn't make them louder, it enables them to respond faster to be able to reproduce the fine details in a sound source. If you only listen to bass heavy pop music or hip hop, then those fine details are either not there in the first place, or the bass and volume overwhelm them so much it doesn't matter; you can't hear them anyways.

I can tell you however, that if you're listening to orchestra stringed instruments; especially cellos and pianos, speaker performance does matter in reproducing the fine tones those instruments produce. I can even hear the difference in brands of cellos with my high-end headphones.

It's going to depend in part on what you listen to, and also how capable your hearing is as to whether or not you're going to notice much of a difference or any at all. Everyone's hearing isn't the same. However as an average, the KEF system should improve its sound quality after approximately 25 hours of normal use, depending of course on what you listen to and what's in the sound source. We should be getting near that reference point with those who've had their cars for a few weeks now, so I'm looking forward to seeing what the reports are.

 

[ADC]

To my knowledge it isn't the speaker drivers that need breaking in, as much as it's the speaker cones; and that's dependent on the material they're made of. The drivers are connected to the cone and push or pull on it, causing it to move. The ability of the cone to respond to the driver determines how good it is at reproducing sound sources.

Crossovers were originally created to not only take the load off of a single speaker trying to do it all, but to specialize speakers for different frequency ranges. Bass frequencies are low, slow and cause a speaker cone to move a lot. If that same speaker is also trying to reproduce the fast tiny movements of high frequencies, that's a problem for a single speaker. Crossovers enabled designers to limit frequency ranges to speakers designed for each designated range, usually 3; a bass, mid range and high frequency. This was called 'high fidelity' compared to the typical single speakers in the radios we all had and were used to listening to. This was done with 3 separate speakers; the bass speakers were the largest because their cones needed to move the most; mid-range were smaller, and tweeters were the smallest because their cones moved the smallest amount, but also the fastest. This was all in the early days when speaker cones were made of paper. I remember blowing out speakers by playing things too loud, which you could easily do with electric guitar amps. You'd hear a pop, and then crackling garbage. It was not a fun moment. Speakers could be re-coned, but usually you'd just buy a new one and replace the old one. Cheap guitar amps had cheap speakers with small magnets. The expensive amps had better speakers with bigger magnets, and they were heavy. Lift a cheap Sears Silvertone amp, then lift a Fender Twin Reverb and you knew right away why the Fender cost more.

Materials today are so much more advanced compared to back then, but the same principles still apply. Because the new materials are stiffer, they can respond faster, but also still benefit from material fiber stretch to loosen them up. I'm talking about the cones, not the driver cores. This doesn't make them louder, it enables them to respond faster to be able to reproduce the fine details in a sound source. If you only listen to bass heavy pop music or hip hop, then those fine details are either not there in the first place, or the bass and volume overwhelm them so much it doesn't matter; you can't hear them anyways.

I can tell you however, that if you're listening to orchestra stringed instruments; especially cellos and pianos, speaker performance does matter in reproducing the fine tones those instruments produce. I can even hear the difference in brands of cellos with my high-end headphones.

It's going to depend in part on what you listen to, and also how capable your hearing is as to whether or not you're going to notice much of a difference or any at all. Everyone's hearing isn't the same. However as an average, the KEF system should improve its sound quality after approximately 25 hours of normal use, depending of course on what you listen to and what's in the sound source. We should be getting near that reference point with those who've had their cars for a few weeks now, so I'm looking forward to seeing what the reports are.

Minor nitpick on your helpful post... isn't it the suspension material connecting the cone to the frame that "breaks in"?

Ideally cones are as rigid as possible while still being light enough to respond/oscillate quickly (which is why high end stuff sometimes uses things like carbon fibre or aluminium).

I suppose some cone materials like polypropylene might also have some give in them that changes the sound a little, but nowhere near as much as the suspension ring.

 

[xen]

I don't see how being near field negates the benefit of good directivity characteristics. Can you expand on that?

The other key benefit of the Uni Q is significantly reduced phase alignment issues. Although modern DSP makes this a much smaller problem than in the past, having a point source is still a superior design.

Not to derail the thread any further but…the closer you are to the source the less important (relatively) reflected sound is. Further you have a fixed MLP so you can avoid the fairly complex reflections / FR you’d get in a car with a narrow directivity speaker that beams.

In a car you have the freedom (within reason) to place the tweeters wherever you want and because you’re working with a fixed MLP(s) it’s much easier to time / phase align the drivers for those positions (hence negating the need for a concentric driver with wide dispersion characteristics)

To be clear you’d still reap some benefits of a smooth off-axis response as you’d still have interference to deal with but…I’d rather not have them (or at least a lot less amplitude) to deal with to start.

 

[Evotion]

Apparently, KEF based the sound acoustics on a lower seat.
The higher seat has moved the balance higher and affected the bounce, reverb and kick from the interior soundboard.

It was getting nerdy in here...

 

[dgrace]

Apparently, KEF based the sound acoustics on a lower seat.
The higher seat has moved the balance higher and affected the bounce, reverb and kick from the interior soundboard.

It was getting nerdy in here...

Presumably the amp was also tuned for 430hp from the engine.