More details for KEF Audio

[lynchy73]

is it also descent when you go uphill?

I stand corrected. Bass still sounds crap when you open a window

 

[lynchy73]

That makes you the resident expert. Our questions will be forthcoming once we get our cars.

I wouldn’t go that far, just making the point that I have some idea when it comes to sound. Not claiming to be an expert.

Just took my car out for a quick spin and test the speakers a little. Wasn’t noticing the distortion when windows were open today. I don’t know exactly what’s going on TBH, it’s almost like things change from day to day. All I know is that there is something not quite right with the bass and that opening a window does seem to make matters worse. Maybe it’s somewhat material dependent. Maybe things change when amps and speakers get hot after more extended use.

I tried putting some low frequency sine waves using an app from my phone today, but wasn’t able to identify anything significant between open and closed windows.

 

[lynchy73]

Thinking back to when I was noticing an obvious distortion with windows open. It was a fairly long dual carriageway drive and the volume was at circa 70 to 80%. The Emira, even the I4 is not exactly quiet, so the volume tends to get pushed pretty high in those circumstances. Today was a 10 minute drive, it’s cold here and volume was maybe 50 to 60%. I really wasn’t picking up that same distortion today that was very obvious last week.

I need to spend more time in the car, I’ve covered about 500 miles so far, it’s my dry weekend toy

Anyways, I didn’t buy the Emira for the speakers, it’s a great car, which will he even better after it’s been run in

 

[Tokion]

That makes you the resident expert. Our questions will be forthcoming once we get our cars.

Nova: Didn’t you rather intend to say: «If we get our cars»

 

[FederGigant]

I‘m also one of the guys here that are no expert, but have at least some idea of audio engineering in general.
In my opinion, the keg system is really good for what it is and especially for what the Emira is. It sounds good, is more than loud enough and there is wry little distortion even at high volumes.
The KEF speakers are not placed perfectly, but it still works. Only real „issue“ is the woofer with the windows down. Per design, the cabin of the car works as kind of a speaker cabinet for the woofer due to it‘s „fresh air“ approach. You are literally sitting inside the subwoofer enclosure. The driver is seeing the cabin as it‘s speaker enclosure which is (hopefully) close to the volume that the driver needs. Therefore the air inside the cabin is working as a spring to control the woofer. If you open the window, you technically increase that volume from let’s say 800 liters to infinite volume. And there lies the issue.

 

[Porter]

I may end up mounting a small sealed sub in a wedge box directly behind the driver's seat, and disabling the "fresh air" bass driver entirely.

 

[Liquid Hot Magma]

Found this on YouTube. Cambridge Car Audio just posted it today. Should be helpful for those of us who want to do our own audio modifications to see the interior after they did the tear down.

Lotus Emira Full Audio Upgrade | Elevating the Sound Experience | Getting rid of the KEF Audio!

 

[kitkat]

Good video I think the Cambridge guys are reading this thread — basically all of the topics you brought up they addressed in their video.

 

[Time2Fly]

So how much was that upgrade?

 

[Speedy Emira]

So how much was that upgrade?

Upgrade the sound system in your Lotus Emira today! — Cambridge Car Audio

Lotus Emira Sound System Upgrade! Audio Upgrade Packages specifically designed for your Lotus Emira by Cambridge Car Audio!

www.cambridgecar.audio

8 levels from £1.5k to £68k.
My mate has a system in his house that was bespoke built and tuned which sounds amazing.

 

[Time2Fly]

I noticed in the video they don't change the center channel. I wonder why. None of the installs mention it either.

I'm really surprised to hear that the A pillar tweeters are non existent. That's a very frustrating oversight. But, while I would likely be tempted to go for the 7k package, there's no way Lotus would send them my car to have it down prior to it being shipped to the States.

 

[Nova]

I noticed in the video they don't change the center channel. I wonder why. None of the installs mention it either.

I'm really surprised to hear that the A pillar tweeters are non existent. That's a very frustrating oversight. But, while I would likely be tempted to go for the 7k package, there's no way Lotus would send them my car to have it down prior to it being shipped to the States.

Yea I noticed that omission too. The video is really short on details and long on sales pitch. The installers did great work. I am not sure how they get full range signal out of the system since none of the channels are full range, but Audison must have some solution for that.

Some of the design goals are just flat out wrong, such as most of what they say about tweeter location an the KEF driver.

My take is that these guys are talented fabricators and installers but they don't really know much about sound system engineering or design. They are just installing the Audison system and following the training that Audison provides them without really understanding the relevance of the adjustments they are doing. Which may be just as well since Audison likely offers a tried and true system integration solution with pretty good results.

 

[Speedy Emira]

Some of the design goals are just flat out wrong, such as most of what they say about tweeter location a the KEF

I’m no sound expert so this is all new to me. I was under the impression that bass being low frequency is more omnidirectional and high frequency sound is more direction the reason bass units can be situated anywhere. Just so I understand why is the tweeter placement advice they give incorrect?
If so many owners don’t like the new system I wonder if the base system will even be any worse?

 

[Fasttoys]

First, I am going to get blasted for those who will defend Lotus no matter what and look at me as picking on the new Emira. I have one on order & have owned Lotus in the past, + been on the wait list since 2020. This video shows us what is wrong with the KEF system. I did a complete Audio rebuild on my Evora (Took 2 1/2 full weeks with a complete tear down that was a nightmare)& after listening to the Kef system so many times 9 +(Even again on 1-27-24) Lotus/Kef fell short. The sound stage on the KEF is off my ears noticed it right away and the volume is a big issue with many other related problems with lack of base as it bottoms out, any true audiophile will notice. If all you care about is driving the Emira & audio is not a big deal you will be fine but for those that are very heavy into music, it will fall short, unfortunately.

Sound staging at any music venue comes from the front, when you go to a concert you don't sit with your back turned to the stage (Having no large drivers in the front is a problem). The small mid-Kef drivers in the upper doors are placed wrong and tweeters should be higher up in the A-P not low away from the ear. IMO they should have kept a mid-base driver in each lower part of the door, this would have allowed for a better mid-base. The Center Speaker tries to compensate with highs but IMO it's nothing special & I would have not changed it either in the end not worth the effort. I agree with the video & think this team did an incredible job but man, at what expense this isn't cheap.. I am sure when Lotus hired KEF they were limited since the car is more of a big refresh & packaging/speaker placement was an issue. The Kef system in the new Lotus SUV is brilliant in comparison I was lucky enough to spend hours listening to it.

Quick pictures of my work on my 2011 Evora in 2012. This was a big upgrade as that system was horrible and the KEF in the Emira is much better than the Evora top original system but fell short based on today's Audio standards. For those that will be changing it out stay with the base systems SAVE the money for your upgrade. Anyway ready for the negative comments so blast away.

 

[Eagle7]

I'm going to wait until I have my actual car, and can sit inside and listen to the sound system before I decide what it is or isn't, and what I would do about it if anything. I'm not buying the Emira to listen to the sound system. The main type of music I want to listen to will be coming from the supercharged V6 behind me. I won't even have the sound system on most of the time. The only time I would possibly use it would be on a trip.

That being said however, I listened to that video, and did so on an expensive pair of headphones. There were things about it that needed proper documentation that was missing. For starters, the weight. He put on his dancing shoes and went into an interesting verbal shuffle dance when talking about how much weight all that added. If the ONLY thing that weighs more than what you added is a PASSENGER, then they added a lot of weight. Based on what I saw, I'm guessing somewhere between 50-100 lbs. Not what I would ever do to a Lotus.

The other thing was sound quality. If their idea of music was the thumping crap they played on that video, then no, they are not audiophiles. The before/after piece they played at the end bothered me too. They used the very old sales gimmick of showing their product versus "brand x". Their product is in glorious color, while the 'before' picture is dimmed and sounds unnecessarily weak. This is like the old TV ads of the housewife who is using 'brand x'; her hair is a mess, she doesn't have makeup on, her clothes look frumpy and she overdoes how awful it is to use 'brand x'. It's even usually in black and white instead of color. When using the product being pushed, suddenly she has makeup, hair looks great, she's wearing nice clothes and has a big smile on her face. And it's in color too!

That was the immediate impression I got from that moment in the video. I was listening on high-end headphones and I don't believe the 'after' portion was recorded in the car. It sounded like it was just the original mastered sound file. What was the recording setup for before and after? What mic was used? Where was it positioned? Did they use more than one mic? They should have showed that to lend legitimacy to the comparison. To me it just looked like old TV, brand-x style advertising.

I was however interested in the portion that showed the software for sound profile adjustment. If Lotus gave us something like that, an expert setting on the main screen, I bet having that level of control would allow for improving the performance of the system. The settings would vary based on what materials are in the interior too; leather versus Alcantara. It would also depend on the sound source and the type of music you listen to.

I would never do to my car what they did to that Emira, but that's me. Some may like that. Based on how many differing opinions there are on what the KEF system sounds like, I'm really looking forward to getting my car and hearing it for myself.

 

[Hell4Leather]

First, I am going to get blasted for those who will defend Lotus no matter what and look at me as picking on the new Emira. I have one on order & have owned Lotus in the past, + been on the wait list since 2020. This video shows us what is wrong with the KEF system. I did a complete Audio rebuild on my Evora (Took 2 1/2 full weeks with a complete tear down that was a nightmare)& after listening to the Kef system so many times 9 +(Even again on 1-27-24) Lotus/Kef fell short. The sound stage on the KEF is off my ears noticed it right away and the volume is a big issue with many other related problems with lack of base as it bottoms out, any true audiophile will notice. If all you care about is driving the Emira & audio is not a big deal you will be fine but for those that are very heavy into music, it will fall short, unfortunately.

Sound staging at any music venue comes from the front, when you go to a concert you don't sit with your back turned to the stage (Having no large drivers in the front is a problem). The small mid-Kef drivers in the upper doors are placed wrong and tweeters should be higher up in the A-P not low away from the ear. IMO they should have kept a mid-base driver in each lower part of the door, this would have allowed for a better mid-base. The Center Speaker tries to compensate with highs but IMO it's nothing special & I would have not changed it either in the end not worth the effort. I agree with the video & think this team did an incredible job but man, at what expense this isn't cheap.. I am sure when Lotus hired KEF they were limited since the car is more of a big refresh & packaging/speaker placement was an issue. The Kef system in the new Lotus SUV is brilliant in comparison I was lucky enough to spend hours listening to it.

Quick pictures of my work on my 2011 Evora in 2012. This was a big upgrade as that system was horrible and the KEF in the Emira is much better than the Evora top original system but fell short based on today's Audio standards. For those that will be changing it out stay with the base systems SAVE the money for your upgrade. Anyway ready for the negative comments so blast away.

View attachment 36408View attachment 36409View attachment 36410View attachment 36411View attachment 36412View attachment 36413View attachment 36414View attachment 36416

I stopped reading after “any true audiophile”. This isn’t an audiophile’s dream car. I like my tunes sure; nice twisty back road, get the RPMs up, turn the volume on some AC/DC and I’m good.

 

[lynchy73]

They did make some valid points in the video. It is plain wrong to have upper bass drivers behind you and I didn’t realise the kef drivers in the doors are that small. Generally it’s said if you crossover at 80hz or below, the location of the low frequencies are hard to detect, but this is crissed over much higher than that it seems. The high frequencies are not pointing remotely close to the listener with the kef setup. It is far from optimal.

However, having said all that, the sound is reasonable (not great) with the windows closed. Once you open the windows the low frequencies go to shit, even at moderate levels.

The setup in the video is a bit much for a car like this IMO. A smaller driver for the sub should be adequate. Smaller mid bass in the doors should also suffice. I’d be very curious to see what could be achieved with the original speakers and an aftermarket dsp/amp. Not sure the free air sub can ever work well with open windows, it may just need to be swapped.

Would be great to hear from the maker of the sub. Surely their car subs should work with open or closed windows.

 

[Nova]

I’m no sound expert so this is all new to me. I was under the impression that bass being low frequency is more omnidirectional and high frequency sound is more direction the reason bass units can be situated anywhere. Just so I understand why is the tweeter placement advice they give incorrect?
If so many owners don’t like the new system I wonder if the base system will even be any worse?

Disclaimers: this topic is complicated, I am not an car audio system expert.

High frequency sound is more directional, that's correct, but it's a different topic from localization. Localization refers to a listeners ability to locate the source of sound on the horizontal and vertical plane - temporarily ignoring the fact that it's more like a sphere.

It's been fairly well demonstrated that while humans have good horizontal localization of sound based on phase and level differences, we have terrible vertical localization and rely on sighted clues and head movements to determine the actual height of the sound. Therefore, mounting the tweeter higher up does not achieve any improvement in sound localization.

In terms of directionality of higher frequency sounds, the primary implication of this is uneven frequency response when listening off-axis. This is why modern speaker manufacturers spend a lot of time managing the directivity of the woofer and tweeter. A speaker with good directivity will sound the same when listening to it at some angle off axis versus direct on-axis. KEF is perhaps one of the most famous for this and their speakers are well regarded for their near constant directivity at large off-axis angles despite other design flaws. So even though the nearside KEF driver is at knee level, the listener actually gets a very well controlled and predictable direct frequency response with perfect phase coherence.

You may get good directivity with a sail panel mounted tweeter if it was engineered to deliver good directivity, but we have no evidence of this in this Emira installation. I would also expect that the new woofer being deeply inset into the door would add reflection and diffraction issues that exacerbates the normally worse beaming problems of larger midbass drivers. I am not saying that this new install has these issues but I don't see any evidence of this being analyzed, measured or addressed. They threw everything together, made it look very pretty, ran their DSP software and whatever came out is what it is.

Again, the system may sound incredible and the stock system may sound like @ss. I am just pointing out that what they said about tweeter height is simply incorrect.

 

[Nova]

First, I am going to get blasted for those who will defend Lotus no matter what and look at me as picking on the new Emira.

I am just going to point out that I have not defended Lotus on this. I have no experience whatsoever with the KEF sound system in the Emira. It may sound like @ss, I don't know.

 

[Fasttoys]

At the end of the day you will find out if it’s good enough for you when you own and listen to the car. I have a very picky ear and installed plenty of high end systems in my day from cars to many home theaters. I was just hoping for more and unfortunately it’s not up to my Audio standards. It will be interesting to see future comments after delivery and ownership. I been in many Ferrari’s matter of fact one yesterday, and the system sounded like a transistor radio with a single speaker system. in the end the Emira was designed to be a drivers car and it looks like Lotus nailed that and that is all that matters.