My Emira and I survived our first track day!

[kitkat]

Maybe it was just me panicking from going from abrupt braking feel to to "shit, what has happened to the brakes"

The car still stopped - just felt completely different.

Rubber lines vs Braided steel lines: The difference should be the immediacy of the response in the brake pedal feel. You should be able to tell this difference hot and cold but it has an overall near negligible effect on actual braking performance.

Standard brake fluid vs High performance brake fluid: The difference you'd feel here would be spongy brakes after a few hot sessions or the pedal going straight to the floor if it's very old fluid with lots of water absorbed.

Standard pads vs Track pads: When the pad gets hot enough, the pad actually goes through sublimation. That's when a material goes directly from solid to gas state. Your pads are literally turning into a heated gas. This feels like you're pressing the pedal and you're getting resistance but you're not getting as much or any braking force. This is also called pad fade and it's the first thing you'll notice when you take a street pad out on the track. Many brake system deficiencies due to this sort of failure are attributed to other causes. The reason rotors are actually slotted and/or drilled is so that as pads sublimate, the gas has somewhere to escape otherwise it gets trapped under the pad and the rotor and pushes back keeping the pad and rotor apart. Track oriented pads have a higher metallic content and less organic pad content which can hold up to higher temperatures before sublimating.

 

[Wstatus]

I really like the Hawk HPS 5.0 pads paired with Motul RBF600 fluid. Great double duty pads! Low dust and great bite.

I would avoid those and go straight to Castrol srf, track compound would depend on how aggressive of track driving you want to do.

best choice is swap pads from race pads to street pads depending on the occasion.

 

[Eagle7]

Emira has braided brake lines. We’ve already covered this:
https://www.emiraforum.com/threads/braided-stainless-steel-brake-hoses.2453/post-74064

Don't remember seeing that, but good call out.

 

[Eagle7]

Rubber lines vs Braided steel lines: The difference should be the immediacy of the response in the brake pedal feel. You should be able to tell this difference hot and cold but it has an overall near negligible effect on actual braking performance.

Standard brake fluid vs High performance brake fluid: The difference you'd feel here would be spongy brakes after a few hot sessions or the pedal going straight to the floor if it's very old fluid with lots of water absorbed.

Standard pads vs Track pads: When the pad gets hot enough, the pad actually goes through sublimation. That's when a material goes directly from solid to gas state. Your pads are literally turning into a heated gas. This feels like you're pressing the pedal and you're getting resistance but you're not getting as much or any braking force. This is also called pad fade and it's the first thing you'll notice when you take a street pad out on the track. Many brake system deficiencies due to this sort of failure are attributed to other causes. The reason rotors are actually slotted and/or drilled is so that as pads sublimate, the gas has somewhere to escape otherwise it gets trapped under the pad and the rotor and pushes back keeping the pad and rotor apart. Track oriented pads have a higher metallic content and less organic pad content which can hold up to higher temperatures before sublimating.

You usually have solid info, so when you say the different lines have a near negligible effect on actual braking performance, what are you referring to as "actual braking performance"? I can tell you from years of doing the swap that the braided lines DO make a noticeable difference, especially on the track where the pedal pressure stays consistent even when the brakes heat up. At that point the braking performance is then up to the pads and strength of the disk/caliper combo as to how well they grip.

If by "standard" brake fluid you're referring to DOT3 that a non-track car would normally come with, the difference between DOT3 and DOT4 fluid is the boiling point. DOT4 has a higher boiling point. High performance cars come with DOT4 so the brake fluid doesn't boil in the lines when the brakes heat up, whereas DOT3 can which means you suddenly lose your brakes. If you've never experienced vapor lock, it ain't fun. DOT4 fluid will absorb moisture easier and faster than DOT3, so you do need to change the fluid more often as a result, but if you're going to the track, you should be changing the brake fluid out every 2 or 3 track days (depending on how much driving time you get) anyways. You should also change the diff oil too. On the Camaro GM recommended changing the diff oil for every 6 hours of track use. I would change out all the fluids; engine, trans and diff after every 3 track days. That would be for a total of usually 4-5 hours of actual track time.

Street vs track pads: Yep, track pads will hold up better on the track, but at a cost. They'll eat through rotors faster than street pads will. The aggressive pads need more heat to work well which is why they do so much better on the track, however for street use they won't be as effective as a street pad, especially if you live in an area with cold temperatures. A street/track pad is a compromise for both to some degree. They will work better for street than just a track pad, better than a street pad for track, but not as good on the track as a track pad. Depends on how often you go to the track and how hard you drive, as to whether or not it makes economic sense to go with a dedicated track set of pads and rotors, or just a set of street/track pads. For the occasional track day, a good street/track pad is a decent upgrade that you can use all the time.

Track use costs money, period. For anyone not used to track days, expect to pay to play. They're a lot of fun, but things like brake rotors, pads and tires are considered consumables along with frequent fluid changes. The cost can climb up into the thousands quickly. Lighter weight cars do better in this area than heavier cars though, so the Emira will do better in that regard than a muscle car for example.

 

[CDM1855]

Watched the new video

Any update on the Larini exhaust ?

 

[Evotion]

Well... the car is definitely better than me!
I took it super easy as I was so scared about somebody hitting my precious car, or me spinning out.
Overall, a very worthy experience. I will push the car and myself a bit more next time out.

I am due to go to Castle Coombe and have booked up Brands Hatch. I also plan to do a Nurburgring trip which should be a laugh.

 

[CDM1855]

Is that Larini exhaust on the car now Ade ?

I couldn’t hear much

 

[Evotion]

Nope. They took it all off when I needed to pick it up for the track day.
There was either an issue with the wiring on the valve or my car needed a timely update to its software.

THe car was lounder with more pronounced burbles with just the new back box. SHould be incredible with the sports car and manifold.

I expect to go back and get it all fitted on - and carbon end tips! - in a couple of weeks. They are waiting for a part and my car to be updated.

 

[GetawayDriving]

Well... the car is definitely better than me!
I took it super easy as I was so scared about somebody hitting my precious car, or me spinning out.
Overall, a very worthy experience. I will push the car and myself a bit more next time out.

I am due to go to Castle Coombe and have booked up Brands Hatch. I also plan to do a Nurburgring trip which should be a laugh.

You said “Let’s go” and then advert came on for Hertz shouting “LET’S GO!”

Coincidence? Or are the machines getting smarter? Either way, I hope they kick you more for it.

Also I get the wrap now. Looks damn good in that opening shot!

 

[benjh1028]

I really like the Hawk HPS 5.0 pads paired with Motul RBF600 fluid. Great double duty pads! Low dust and great bite.

Porterfield is a solid option as well. Hawks or Porterfields only during my race days. And always Motul, which used to sell brake fluid in two colors which was extremely helpful when bleeding brakes during fluid changes.

 

[benjh1028]

The Emira already comes with DOT4 brake fluid so it should be able to hold up to track use. @Evotion what you might want to look into, is upgrading the brake hoses to the wheels from rubber to braided stainless steel. As the rubber hoses get hot they get softer, so that causes them to expand and stretch more under brake pressure, which is what makes it feel like your brakes are going soft. Braided stainless steel hoses won't do that, so you'll get crisp and consistent braking pressure all the time.

Big difference between DOT4 and racing fluid. Good article here: https://emotive.engineering/blogs/the-logbook/the-ultimate-track-day-and-racing-brake-fluid-guide

 

[Evotion]

So if I uprate the fluid, which is the most effective solution I assume, then how does it affect the driving on the road? I can just keep it in there?

 

[Eagle7]

So if I uprate the fluid, which is the most effective solution I assume, then how does it affect the driving on the road? I can just keep it in there?

The DOT4 rated fluid is fine for the street. From watching your video and your description of what happened, I'd say you need better brake pads. Maybe some of the members here who are also in the U.K., can recommend a decent street/track pad that will work well for both. Hopefully ones that don't squeak or squeal when they're cold. I haven't bought track pads in 10 years so I'm not familiar with whatever's new.

Your video was fun to watch. That looks like a really nice track, and I thought your shifting was nice and quick. Your lines were pretty good. With a momentum car, you don't make up time driving hard into a corner than standing on the brakes; you make up time braking a bit earlier, then trail braking to set yourself up into and through the corner. Just as you reach the apex, start feathering the throttle to accelerate through it and out of the corner, instead of just letting the car carry you out, then stomping on the gas. It's a different type of driving technique than if you have gobs of power and torque available.

 

[Eagle7]

Big difference between DOT4 and racing fluid. Good article here: https://emotive.engineering/blogs/the-logbook/the-ultimate-track-day-and-racing-brake-fluid-guide

Yes but he's not dedicating the Emira to just racing. He needs something that will work for both street and track, and DOT4 is plenty good for that. He just needs better pads.

 

[kitkat]

So if I uprate the fluid, which is the most effective solution I assume, then how does it affect the driving on the road? I can just keep it in there?

Imho, Castrol React SRF if you can get it over there.

It simply has the highest tested wet boiling temperature out there by a long shot. The compressibility is still very low so decent pedal feel.

I change it out once per track year, people claim SRF has slightly lower hygroscopic behavior than other fluids and it’s basically the only fluid that the track rats really use.

Street driving will be completely unaffected.

The down side is price, this stuff may as well be liquid gold.

Don’t think your problem is brake fluids though, but go ahead and upgrade it anyways.

 

[Evotion]

So I will seek to upgrade the fluid and the pads then.
100% I don't want any squeaking. I hate that. Triggers me
I don't mind brake dust as I have black wheels and they have been ceramic coated so easy to blast off dust.

I'd have thought the Lotus' AP set-up would have been fine straight out of the box.

 

[kitkat]

So I will seek to upgrade the fluid and the pads then.
100% I don't want any squeaking. I hate that. Triggers me
I don't mind brake dust as I have black wheels and they have been ceramic coated so easy to blast off dust.

I'd have thought the Lotus' AP set-up would have been fine straight out of the box.

You will need to swap pads for street driving if you really want no noise. There are zero pads on the market that have street characteristics and track capability. You can hunt for this forever, but it doesn’t exist — we all go through this process and I’m just trying to save you a costly step.

The real problem is that as a newer track driver, you actually brake more than an advanced driver. Some magazine testers are actually pretty good drivers and only need to do a couple hot laps so they find the stock brakes adequate.

Stock street car pads need to be safe for the street, track pads don’t even warm up until a few hard applications. The AP brakes are also street models without all the fancy race series brakes. The AP racing series brakes typically have lower weight, a finish that can take the heat and don’t turn brown/black over time, no dust seals to melt, domed or vented pistons, possibly titanium pistons, anti knock-back springs and much better rotors.

 

[VL3X]

So if I uprate the fluid, which is the most effective solution I assume, then how does it affect the driving on the road? I can just keep it in there?

The RBF600 I use is fine on the street. The only downside is needing to change it once a year.. Which isn't really a problem for me since I bought a power bleeder and just do it myself in an hour.

Again, I highly recommended the Hawk HPS 5.0s pads. They're reasonably priced, zero noise on the street, and have held up fine on my HPDE track days. You'll want dedicated track pads if you'll be doing many track days a year and really pushing it though.

 

[Evotion]

Cheers. I will be adding these to the car very soon then.

 

[benjh1028]

I think KitKat said it earlier, it’s best to have track pads and street pads. Racing fluid makes no difference with street driving. It’s not difficult to pop in your racing pads before a track day, and not a massive investment.