Seatbelts jammed

[duff]

It's not necessarily a production problem with multiple cars. The only car we're aware of that has had this belt "failure" issue is @duff's... and it could literally be a bad connector at the vehicle telemetry controller or something, not at the seat belt units themselves.

The fact that both tensioners are locked in "retract/ratchet" mode indicates to me that some kind of electrical issue is at play, and on a new car that's usually a manufacturing defect with one of the wiring harness connectors. They are assembled by inserting tiny pins into the plastic connector housings, and errors do occur sometimes in component production - and that's not Lotus by the way, but the harness component manufacturer. The fact that replacing the seat belt units didn't solve it makes this sort of scenario even more likely.

The issue as stated by Lotus is that it was installed incorrectly (by Lotus)(twice)

 

[Porter]

The issue as stated by Lotus is that it was installed incorrectly (by Lotus)(twice)

I mean, that may be them simply trying to take responsibility for the problem. It doesn't necessarily indicate that they've done an explicit root cause analysis.

 

[duff]

I mean, that may be them simply trying to take responsibility for the problem. It doesn't necessarily indicate that they've done an explicit root cause analysis.

That was post investigation. Given it happen twice I pushed them pretty hard to get some clarity over what had happened.
Note this was all just before and after Xmas and is taking on a bit of a life of its own after I mentioned it in the context of twisted belts on another thread.

 

[KJD]

The fact that both tensioners are locked in "retract/ratchet" mode indicates to me that some kind of electrical issue is at play, and on a new car that's usually a manufacturing defect with one of the wiring harness connectors. They are assembled by inserting tiny pins into the plastic connector housings, and errors do occur sometimes in component production - and that's not Lotus by the way, but the harness component manufacturer. The fact that replacing the seat belt units didn't solve it makes this sort of scenario even more likely.

Umm, not sure about this.
In the Evora, the electrical connector on the reel was for the pyro pre-tensioner.
Not sure what could be different about the Emira.

A thought:
I discovered (by accident) that some belts (but not all) are set up for child seats.
When you pull it all the way out it will then only ratchet in until it is nearly all the way back in when it will free up again. Designed to “lock” a child seat in place.
Found this out in my old Exige that had differently-behaving belts driver/passenger sides.
Could this be happening somehow?

 

[Porter]

Umm, not sure about this.
In the Evora, the electrical connector on the reel was for the pyro pre-tensioner.
Not sure what could be different about the Emira.

A thought:
I discovered (by accident) that some belts (but not all) are set up for child seats.
When you pull it all the way out it will then only ratchet in until it is nearly all the way back in when it will free up again. Designed to “lock” a child seat in place.
Found this out in my old Exige that had differently-behaving belts driver/passenger sides.
Could this be happening somehow?

Tons of cars have this. I use it as a fast driving "instant harness" feature to lock myself into the seat.

Surely @duff is familiar with this and has experimented, it's a feature on most modern cars unless they have really advanced dynamic tensioning tech.

 

[Superman]

If you watch the videos of the production line, both Harry's and Shmee's, these cars are complex. I watched the video that @kratedisease posted of the C8 production facility, and what they say is the same for pretty much all vehicle manufacturers today, including Lotus. Today's cars are seriously complex, and it takes qualified people on the line to make sure they're assembled correctly. For the C8, it even goes so far as making sure the SAME person is at a particular station each shift, because the understanding and mental focus necessary to do it right at that station is so critical, any mistakes there cause huge issues down the line.

What I am about to say is totally off-topic, and I apologise for that... But, this reminded me, my daughter is currently doing an Internship at Mini in Oxford, a couple of months ago her and all the other interns were 'drafted' onto the production line for a few days each due to staff illness/shortages... She was putting rear control arms onto minis for a couple of days... all I will say is be wary of any Minis built recently

 

[TomE]

This is something that somebody there with connections needs to let Lotus know. Honestly, it's probably one of those things that unless you're specifically looking for it, it wouldn't cross your mind to even notice it unless you were having trouble with the belt.

This is one of those things that would require a costly recall notice from Lotus to all owners and dealers who have cars, to have them checked and make sure the belts are installed correctly. If not, then it's an expense on Lotus to have them removed and correctly installed. Best to do it now before they have too many cars out in circulation.

They know. It was escalated to Lotus senior management by duff and me when it first happened, and again by duff when it recurred after the first fix.

So far there is only one confirmed case of the belts jamming. A few examples of people finding they stick sometimes, which can be normal behaviour or symptoms of this issue. Plus there are some pictures of cars with belts potentially twisted or wrongly installed.

Lotus have a process in place for tracking field reports from dealers and Customer Care. That feeds not just into the resolution of that particular car but also into the processes for reviewing if an issue exists (or could exist) across a range of cars and if it needs to be addressed in the production of future cars. Depending on severity and impact of the issue and number of cars affected, it can then result in a recall or service bulletin.

The posts on this thread helpfully enable an existing owner or someone about to collect their car to determine if there might be an issue with the seatbelts on their car. They can then raise that with their dealer for resolution.

 

[KJD]

Surely @duff is familiar with this

Well maybe he isn’t, hence my post.

 

[Mctaff]

This isn't the fault of Lotus.

am I the only person here who thinks this is hilarious?

Unsure if you’re being sarcastic here or not!!

 

[Mctaff]

My previous assumption was that the seatbelt was installed correctly, and from your picture it doesn't appear that it is. If the end inside the B pillar has to be installed in the orientation in the photo, then that belt should be on the other side of the car. In order for the belt to lay properly in the photo, the top would have to be rotated 180° clockwise so the belt would lay flat across your body and not twist like that.

Lotus saying there's no way from visual inspection to tell which side they go on isn't true. You can tell by which direction the blade points. Coming up out of the B pillar and through the loop at the top, with the belt flat, the blade should be pointing inward towards the middle of the car. You shouldn't have to twist it around like it is in your photo.

Look at the photo below. On the right side of the photo, the belt coming up out of the B pillar is flat, and note the direction the blade is pointing. This belt is installed correctly on the correct side.

View attachment 21955

On page 30 of their own manual, it shows the way the belt is supposed to lay across the drawing of the woman, and it also clearly states in the first warning that the belt is not supposed to be twisted.

View attachment 21956

@Eagle7 i detect a hint of criticism of lotus here.

Welcome to the dark side….

 

[lion shf]

Unsure if you’re being sarcastic here or not!!

Obviously it’s Lotus’ fault lol

 

[Magma]

Obviously it’s Lotus’ fault lol

I think I got what you meant...

 

[NicolasB]

@Eagle7 i detect a hint of criticism of lotus here.

Welcome to the dark side….

He's already on his way to confession!

 

[Bilbao-Emira]

The twist vs. non twist thing has nothing to do with the side of the car the belt is installed on. In both cases it's coming down flat from a top pivot and bolts directly to the side of the seat frame.

The twist is an installation issue in the factory, and it has nothing to do with the Left vs Right side. The metal mounting tab at the bottom of the belt is not "handed" left or right. See:
View attachment 21964

The issue that @duff is experiencing is a different one, related to the tensioning mechanism, and could very well be a left-vs-right install issue for the retracting/tensioning unit, but it almost certainly doesn't have anything to do with the seat belt webbing being twisted out past the upper B-pillar bracket. Seat belt tensioner function simply doesn't depend on the belt laying in a certain orientation at the fastener end.

Here's how the tensioner mechanism mounts to the car:
View attachment 21966

What might be at play for @duff is an issue with the wiring harness connector where it plugs into the tensioner mechanism. I don't know what the failure mode is for the belt operation if electrical fails (or is unplugged)... it could be "ratchet retract and hold". Or it could be some other kind of electrical gremlin.
View attachment 21967

Thanks a lot.
It confirms what I thought after I played with the seatbelt of the demo 2 days ago.
simple wrong installation at the bottom of the seat on the unit I saw. Just change the direction on the bottom and and subsequently change the direction of the buckle, and it will be properly aligned and not twisted anymore.

Totally Different issue and not related with being twisted, is if it gets jammed, nothing to do with the twisted belt:
Either faulty unit or wrong side placement. As simple as that.

 

[Magma]

Only one car reported as having the seat belt jamming issue. It did affect both driver and passenger belts, and after Lotus replaced the belts one of the new ones then jammed again 24 hours later.

I believe someone on a test drive reported a seat belt issue as well. I could be wrong, but I swear someone said that.

 

[TomE]

What I've seen:

• Twisted belts have been more widely reported.
• Some have locked temporarily when pulled out, which can happen on many cars if the belt is pulled too sharply.
• One passenger who reported the belt wouldn't pull out very far but it did pull out and rewind.
• One passenger belt that would only pull out if the parking brake was off (this was on a test drive so may be the one you recall).
• Only one car where both the belts have jammed in the fully retracted position and wouldn't free up. Same problem with one of the replacement belts too.

 

[TomE]

Another case of seat belts jamming in the fully retracted position reported by John Durkin on one of the Facebook groups. Other responses suggest a few other people have had intermittent jamming, including after heavy braking or stopped on a down-facing slope.

 

[Porter]

The Owner Handbook does indicate that the system will lock if the vehicle is tilted, on pg 29.

Note: for those not in the flow of this conversation, I'm not saying that this is expected operation. I'm just pointing out something in the Handbook as a data point. So put down your pitchforks.

 

[Mctaff]

It’s not a flaw it’s a design feature!!

 

[TomE]

Another case of seat belts jamming in the fully retracted position reported by John Durkin on one of the Facebook groups. Other responses suggest a few other people have had intermittent jamming, including after heavy braking or stopped on a down-facing slope.

Update on this: Lotus Roadside Assistance (AA) were able to free the belts and hence the car was then driveable.