Emira performance - disappointing?

[Finbarqs]

How much money do you have to spend?

After the purchase, insurance, registration, taxes, -20k

 

[Finbarqs]

My understanding from JUBU product descriptions is that some of their ECUs/tunes allow for a higher redline but I'd highly doubt it's anywhere near 8K. I'd be happy with 7,000-7200 and not have it cut the power so hard although admittedly I didn't get much of a chance to test the rev limiter during my test drive.

Once warranty is out I'll be strongly considering the 460hp option but it's a bit premature for those decisions until we're driving the car around for longer periods IMHO.

Looking at some tune shops with that engine, some got it to tune up to 9k on their 2GR-FE… so I would think 8k would be easier, keeping the same bhp… but I’ll settle for 6.8k…. That’s like my 22’ g70… that redline comes up sooo quick though….

 

[hagen111]

For those asking for a higher redline on a supercharged engine...these don't go well alongside in case you want torque at lower revs.

My 'best guess' is you can get the stock engine setup easily up to 460hp, as it is identical to the final editions of Exige and Evora. If you want to go beyond it will require bigger modifications. As well a 8k redline is also easy to get to, just make the supercharger run lower revs (and thus reduce torque at low revs), and you can just move the performance of the supercharger higher up the rev range and reduce the boost to get to 8k rev limit.

However, I absolutely love the current 400hp output, as the supercharged setup provides so much thrust coming out of corners and the cars is mega fast when really driving it in the mountains from one corner to another!

 

[JonFuller]

I'd be happy with 7,000-7200 and not have it cut the power so hard .........

I'm really surprised that more folk don't comment on that 'hard' limiter.

It's my biggest complaint of the Emira setup, Too low, and too abrupt., it's SOOO abrupt, feels like someone pulls a wire off as it touches the limiter, rather than just stutter at the redline. I hate it.
Given the tech at hand, including the fly by wire throttle, you'd think they could give us a nice soft limiter.
I know the power charts suggest a flat torque curve right up to the limiter, but when I drive it, it feels like it really wakes up in the final 1500rpm. This prompts me to try and use all of that narrow but fun band of power, which in turn, means I'm prone to touching the dreaded, ultra harsh rev limiter, especially in the first couple of gears, where the numbers whizz by oh-so-fast, making it very hard to judge the lift/shift point as close to the limit as possible.

My thoughts are that historically, revving an engine out, it was easy to judge the point where it was time to shift, as you could feel the benefit of revving any higher was fading, this would usually happen before finding the red line & limiter. The Emira on the other hand, feels like that horrid, abrupt rev limiter kills everything just as the motor is REALLY waking up, making it easier to accidentally stumble into. Most annoying.

I note watching the video of the JUBU 460 Emira on the rolling road (with aftermarket ECU) when it touches the limiter, that sounds softer, and more traditional, just a stammer, rather than total cut.

Also looks like they have it revving to 7200-ish rpm, according to their charts.. Sounds nice.

See it here:

 

[Eagle7]

Don't know if this has been posted anywhere, but this is a pretty good review of an Emira being driven on the Bathurst track.

 

[K_Squared]

I'm really surprised that more folk don't comment on that 'hard' limiter.

It's my biggest complaint of the Emira setup, Too low, and too abrupt., it's SOOO abrupt, feels like someone pulls a wire off as it touches the limiter, rather than just stutter at the redline. I hate it.
Given the tech at hand, including the fly by wire throttle, you'd think they could give us a nice soft limiter.
I know the power charts suggest a flat torque curve right up to the limiter, but when I drive it, it feels like it really wakes up in the final 1500rpm. This prompts me to try and use all of that narrow but fun band, which in turn, means I'm prone to touching the dreaded, ultra harsh rev limiter, especially in the first couple of gears, where the numbers whizz by oh-so-fast, making it very hard to judge the lift/shift point as close to the limit as possible.

My thoughts are that historically, revving an engine out, it was easy to judge the point where it was time to shift, as you could feel the benefit of revving any higher was fading, this would usually happen before finding the red line & limiter. The Emira on the other hand, feels like that horrid limiter kills everything just as the motor is REALLY waking up, making it easier to accidentally stumble into. Most annoying.

I note watching the video of the JUBU 460 Emira on the rolling road (with replacement ECU) when it touches the limiter, that sounds softer, and more traditional, just a stammer, rather than total cut.

See it here:
Also looks like they have it revving to 7200 ish according to their charts.. Sounds nice.

Yeah good call on the 7.2K RPM. It does appear that's what they rev it out to. Also notice where the peak power is in the below translated numbers from the following screenshot (hint: it's materially beyond the factory cut-off):

7,200 RPM redline
464hp @ 7,070rpm
360ft lb torque @ 4,630rpm

I have to think with this kit the Emira should be well under 4.0 secs to 60 despite the slow shift into 2nd. It is essentially a 15% increase in HP and roughly 16% in torque AND more time to use both based on the dyno results.

Unless I just love the power as is, this will be hard to resist come warranty expiration time. In my view, this would tip the Emira into it legitimately being fast enough in a straight line to support its supercar looks. It's probably very unnecessary on the road but I'm sure it would increase the fun factor by a decent margin.

EDIT: I did also notice their 435 version does NOT seem to have the higher redline and has much less low-end torque (between around 2-3.5K RPMs) compared to the 460:

 

[JonFuller]

.......should be well under 4.0 secs to 60 despite the slow shift into 2nd........

Yes, that's another disappointment for me, The syncro feels a little weak on 2nd gear to me.
It's OK under normal road driving, but if you try a 'sprint' through the lower gears using all the RPM's, the syncro feels inadequate on 2nd gear (grinds rather easily)

I may be wrong, but get the impression that this gearbox is not normally fitted to the V6 petrol engine in 'Toyota World', rather, it comes from a diesel setup, most likely chosen for it's bigger, more heavy duty design, to deal with the extra torque the blower provides. It maybe (if i'm right), that this setup's syncro cones etc, were just never designed, or intended to be syncronising those large, heavy, diesel gearbox components at circa 7000rpm. It's also plausible, that this application has Lotus using a heavier weight gear oil as part of their strategy to extend the life of the box, and that this further inhibits the ability of the syncros to do their job when in a hurry. My car's gearbox is considerably better (from a syncro point of view) once it's good and hot (very old skool Ferrari-esk), so definitely prefers 'runny' oil.

I'd be interested to know the difference between JUBUs' 460, and Komo-tecs', as there's a 3000 Euro difference in price, and I'm pretty sure the 460 doesn't get any internal engine work from either company. (as far as I can see, only the JUBU 500 gets much improved pistons & rods).
Given the locked-out Lotus ECU, I assume both company's have to change out the ECU to acheive the remap? JUBU certainly do, as they mention it in their blurb, saying you keep the old/stock ECU, that you can then refit it for 'warranty work' should it be needed

Given the Emira's virtual gauge cluster, complete with shift lights, red line etc, I wonder if the JUBU 460 has all this sorted, ie, the virtual red line on the display showing 7200 instead of 6800, and shift lights now flashing at the 'new' numbers. ?

TBH, 0-60 times are a bit academic and daft in my mind, not many lotus type folk are out there launching their cars at the lights....that's all a bit 'Revvin Kevin'. It's only really useful as a yardstick to demonstrate how lively the thing is (power to weight), I think a 50-100mph figure would be way better, and more telling (less dependant on super quick shift in that first change, and general abuse of the car to acheive a good figure), so that's a performance spec I'd personally like to see on cars, or even 50-150. That would give a good idea of how the straight-line performance would feel/compare on Track/Autobahn etc.

 

[JonFuller]

Yeah good call on the 7.2K RPM. It does appear that's what they rev it out to. Also notice where the peak power is in the below translated numbers from the following screenshot (hint: it's materially beyond the factory cut-off):

7,200 RPM redline
464hp @ 7,070rpm
360ft lb torque @ 4,630rpm

View attachment 34852
I have to think with this kit the Emira should be well under 4.0 secs to 60 despite the slow shift into 2nd. It is essentially a 15% increase in HP and roughly 16% in torque AND more time to use both based on the dyno results.

Unless I just love the power as is, this will be hard to resist come warranty expiration time. In my view, this would tip the Emira into it legitimately being fast enough in a straight line to support its supercar looks. It's probably very unnecessary on the road but I'm sure it would increase the fun factor by a decent margin.

EDIT: I did also notice their 435 version does NOT seem to have the higher redline and has much less low-end torque (between around 2-3.5K RPMs) compared to the 460:

View attachment 34854

That's odd. According to the charts you show, the 435 actually makes more peak torque than the 460, but just doesn't rev as high.
Is this a product of running the stock cast exhaust manifolds and pre-cats?? Or am I missing something? Confused of Shepperton.

 

[K_Squared]

That's odd. According to the charts you show, the 435 actually makes more peak torque than the 460, but just doesn't rev as high.
Is this a product of running the stock cast exhaust manifolds and pre-cats?? Or am I missing something? Confused of Shepperton.

That's beyond my area of expertise in terms of the peak torque throughput as it seems puzzling to me. Based on the charts, though, the freer-breathing manifolds and cats in the 460 definitely appear to give it much more oomph at low RPMs. I think that will make it FEEL quite a bit faster than it probably is in terms of straight-line speed.

 

[hellasf1]

I'm really surprised that more folk don't comment on that 'hard' limiter.

It's my biggest complaint of the Emira setup, Too low, and too abrupt., it's SOOO abrupt, feels like someone pulls a wire off as it touches the limiter, rather than just stutter at the redline. I hate it.
Given the tech at hand, including the fly by wire throttle, you'd think they could give us a nice soft limiter.
I know the power charts suggest a flat torque curve right up to the limiter, but when I drive it, it feels like it really wakes up in the final 1500rpm. This prompts me to try and use all of that narrow but fun band of power, which in turn, means I'm prone to touching the dreaded, ultra harsh rev limiter, especially in the first couple of gears, where the numbers whizz by oh-so-fast, making it very hard to judge the lift/shift point as close to the limit as possible.

My thoughts are that historically, revving an engine out, it was easy to judge the point where it was time to shift, as you could feel the benefit of revving any higher was fading, this would usually happen before finding the red line & limiter. The Emira on the other hand, feels like that horrid, abrupt rev limiter kills everything just as the motor is REALLY waking up, making it easier to accidentally stumble into. Most annoying.

I note watching the video of the JUBU 460 Emira on the rolling road (with aftermarket ECU) when it touches the limiter, that sounds softer, and more traditional, just a stammer, rather than total cut.

Also looks like they have it revving to 7200-ish rpm, according to their charts.. Sounds nice.

See it here:

Yeah this is an issue that I think a tune should resolve. I’ve hit that limiter 1 time during 1st gear on the test drive of the demo car. I was looking at the redline not reading the “shift”. Which I believe the digital tachometer is a little delayed. Didn’t think too much about it but I told the dealership I didn’t like how abrupt that is. Never experienced anything like that in any other car I’ve ever owned.

Well it happened to me yesterday for the first time in my car during a spirited drive top of 3rd in a long sweep turn and it’s really unsafe. Bc in a fast turn to make that kind of throttle input makes a mid engine car very unsettled and dangerous. I was able to react quickly enough but this is something everyone should be careful with.

Yes I should have shifted to 4th but as we all do sometimes we push it. Especially since I have the full Milltek system with the controller it’s exhilarating near redline.

Absolutely love this car but this little detail needs a fix.

 

[hagen111]

Ok, bold statement: “Anyone who hits the limiter doesn’t know how to drive an Emira fast!”

This is a SUPERCHARGED engine, you are not supposed to rev it out in case you want to go fast. Educate yourself…

 

[hellasf1]

Ok, bold statement: “Anyone who hits the limiter doesn’t know how to drive an Emira fast!”

This is a SUPERCHARGED engine, you are not supposed to rev it out in case you want to go fast. Educate yourself…

I haven’t seen a more inaccurate statement on this forum. I’ve had plenty of SC engines that love to rev out to make peak HP… not TQ

Part of learning a new car is finding its limits in all performance areas and sometimes that comes with hitting a limiter, along with the brakes and lateral forces it can handle. No one is setting records on the street..

Buying an Emira to set lap records isn’t what the car was build for. There are other options to be quickest on track if that’s your main objective. Peak power is build at the top of the limiter. Idk about stock EMIRA but JUBU tune peak power is at peak redline…

We can’t all be Michael Schumacher like yourself lol cheers

 

[Evotion]

It still amazes me how GREAT the Emira performance is.
This is a very fast car. I travel a lot with 812 Comps, Speciales, Performantes.
Never been close to being left behind on the road and it is a beast on the track too.

I don't get all this hunt for an extra 0.2s 0-62MPH or 400 more revs.
The car is fantastic and absolutely perfect performance for the road and price.

 

[Speedy Emira]

Ok, bold statement: “Anyone who hits the limiter doesn’t know how to drive an Emira fast!”

This is a SUPERCHARGED engine, you are not supposed to rev it out in case you want to go fast. Educate yourself…

Back when information wasn’t so readily available I built a very high spec car for pre 2009 and tested 4 different superchargers before settling on a specific one:

http://www.406coupeclub.org/media/documents/PFC%202007%2002.pdf

Basically a supercharger is like the compressor side of a turbo ran by a belt drive instead of exhaust gases. They can be geared to run higher rpm but better around 1000 rpm and it’s pointless to go higher unless it’s a track only car. The number one advantage for an SC isn’t virtually no lag but the low intake temps.
Hp is importance but as a usable with it peak at say 8000 rpm. It’s a sure way to wreck the gearbox which can handle way more power at lower rpm.
Putting big power in a mid engine car using a turbo is going to cause massive heat soak so the SC is the way to go for those who want to push the boundaries. Personally I’d say the 7200 rpm limit is the sweet spot for the current SC and works well with the low down torque.
I think the 440 hp tune Jon is getting is the best for reliability and it has virtually the same torque as the other tunes 460 and below as 500 nm seems the safe point. JUBU uses a stand alone ecu (Syvecs) and the Komotec uses the oem ecu hence the price difference.
Fitting branch manifold usually increases hp a bit but can lower the torque low down which for me doesn’t work. Also there is power to be gained removing the third cat and in the UK this is legal if the manifolds are not changed.

 

[hagen111]

I haven’t seen a more inaccurate statement on this forum. I’ve had plenty of SC engines that love to rev out to make peak HP… not TQ

Part of learning a new car is finding its limits in all performance areas and sometimes that comes with hitting a limiter, along with the brakes and lateral forces it can handle. No one is setting records on the street..

Buying an Emira to set lap records isn’t what the car was build for. There are other options to be quickest on track if that’s your main objective. Peak power is build at the top of the limiter. Idk about stock EMIRA but JUBU tune peak power is at peak redline…

We can’t all be Michael Schumacher like yourself lol cheers

Fair enough! Lets say it differentially… I liked the way my old Exige V6 made its power, I like the way the Emira V6 makes it power. It‘s so smooth and extremely fast through the mid-range. I love how you can find the sweetspot of the engine and the fact that the SC brings what it is intended for. Mind this is an old Toyota V6 engine design…

Yes I do the occasional trackday with my Caterham and Lotus. My comment though more originates from my degree as an automotive engineer, and having a life long passion for engine building - still as an amateur.

Then you read the comments about people being dissapointed about hitting the rev-limit at a little over 7k….and think… oh well…in fact, not so much. I should not care.

 

[Eagle7]

There's always an adaptation period when driving a new car, or one you've never driven before. The one part that is the most adaptable and easiest to change is you. You can change a car's performance and behavior through modding, but you still have to learn how to adapt to it. To me that's one of the fun things about a new car; getting to know it.

A Lotus has always been a momentum car, and the Emira is no exception. The advantage of the supercharger is a much wider and more tractable power band, compared to say a turbo, where there's a definite break-over point when the turbo kicks in. Turbos do best at high rpms which is why people who are used to that want to keep the rpms up there. That also sounds fantastic which is an added bonus.

A car like the Emira allows you to do a lot more with the lower and mid rpms because you don't see a sudden huge drop-off in torque and power when you shift up the way you do with a turbo. It's a different driving style. You spend less time going for the glory at the top of the rpm range, and more time using the gears in the fat part of the torque band. This is why you'll see a momentum car suddenly catch up to a horsepower car in the corners, and fall behind in the straights.

As Colin Chapman famously said, power makes you fast in a straight line, while losing weight makes you faster everywhere. After getting my car and driving it now, I've decided not to go with a tune. I MAY go the Eventuri route, although not until after the warranty period has ended. It adds a nice lift in torque right up to 3,500 rpm which is where I usually shift. I never look at the tach; I've always shifted by sound with every manual trans car I've owned. Whenever I shift and then look at the tach, it's almost exactly at 3,500 rpm. Sometimes I'll go up to 4k or higher if it's just for fun, but most of my shifting is between 2k and 4k to be honest.

I'm going to focus on adding lightness. I already have the Antigravity battery (haven't installed it yet), and custom forged wheels are on order. Right now the car is in the garage and I'm waiting for the weather to improve. It's raining and supposed to continue raining for the next 3 days. I've only had one day driving my car which was Friday. It was delivered on Thursday when it was heavy overcast and threatening rain. Friday was clear for awhile, then the storm clouds came in and it's been raining since.

I'm so impressed with how nice this car is. I know the purists wanted something more raw, but I think Lotus made the right decision. As frustrating as the long wait was in many ways, I have to say now that I have the car, it was worth the wait.

 

[hellasf1]

Fair enough! Lets say it differentially… I liked the way my old Exige V6 made its power, I like the way the Emira V6 makes it power. It‘s so smooth and extremely fast through the mid-range. I love how you can find the sweetspot of the engine and the fact that the SC brings what it is intended for. Mind this is an old Toyota V6 engine design…

Yes I do the occasional trackday with my Caterham and Lotus. My comment though more originates from my degree as an automotive engineer, and having a life long passion for engine building - still as an amateur.

Then you read the comments about people being dissapointed about hitting the rev-limit at a little over 7k….and think… oh well…in fact, not so much. I should not care.

Stock EMIRA redline is set at 6800 which feels a bit shorter than that. Idk about all EMIRA’s but mine pulls hard all the way to the top with no power loss.

I’ve had cars where redline says 7200 but peak was at 6500 and you can tell the extra rpm’s will do nothing for you. That I see no point going close to redline.

Redline is a touchy subject for most and you shouldn’t max it out all the time,
Unless the car is build for that consistent demand. But if you guys get a chance if not done so already and do the Milltek or any other system with the 3rd cat delete and Milltek controller, the car sounds absolutely phenomenal, especially near the limits of redline!

Part of being a driver cars and why I think we all bought one is the emotions of it (along with being maybe the last manual, hydraulic mid-engine to be built lol) and sound is a HUGE part of that emotion and just like in life the closer you get to the edge or “limits”, the more exhilarating it is. The EMIRA is no different in my eyes.

I know you don’t have to push the EMIRA to have or enjoy these limits, but sometimes you want more

My original comment was stating that it’s still unsafe for a rev limiter to be set to abruptly lose power as if that driver releases the accelerate instantly, which if you know from racing is a big no no, especially the faster your going. That can send someone spinning..

 

[Eagle7]

Stock EMIRA redline is set at 6800 which feels a bit shorter than that. Idk about all EMIRA’s but mine pulls hard all the way to the top with no power loss.

I’ve had cars where redline says 7200 but peak was at 6500 and you can tell the extra rpm’s will do nothing for you. That I see no point going close to redline.

Redline is a touchy subject for most and you shouldn’t max it out all the time,
Unless the car is build for that consistent demand. But if you guys get a chance if not done so already and do the Milltek or any other system with the 3rd cat delete and Milltek controller, the car sounds absolutely phenomenal, especially near the limits of redline!

Part of being a driver cars and why I think we all bought one is the emotions of it (along with being maybe the last manual, hydraulic mid-engine to be built lol) and sound is a HUGE part of that emotion and just like in life the closer you get to the edge or “limits”, the more exhilarating it is. The EMIRA is no different in my eyes.

I know you don’t have to push the EMIRA to have or enjoy these limits, but sometimes you want more

My original comment was stating that it’s still unsafe for a rev limiter to be set to abruptly lose power as if that driver releases the accelerate instantly, which if you know from racing is a big no no, especially the faster your going. That can send someone spinning..

You might want to consider a valve spring upgrade. Reasonably priced and adds some peace of mind if you're going to spend a lot of time near the top of the rpm band.

JUBU Performance -

Tuning und Porsche/Lotus Service in Österreich, Inspektion und Unfallreparatur für Lotus und Porsche. Vertrieb von Porsche und Lotus Performance Parts.

www.jubu-performance.com

 

[hellasf1]

You might want to consider a valve spring upgrade. Reasonably priced and adds some peace of mind if you're going to spend a lot of time near the top of the rpm band.

JUBU Performance -

Tuning und Porsche/Lotus Service in Österreich, Inspektion und Unfallreparatur für Lotus und Porsche. Vertrieb von Porsche und Lotus Performance Parts.

www.jubu-performance.com

Will definitely do this. I will go with their 440 tune at some point. How much would installation be you think?

 

[scc.131.fe]

Sometimes I'll go up to 4k or higher if it's just for fun, but most of my shifting is between 2k and 4k to be honest.

I can relate to this, being used to manual-trans V8s (which I still own). And I'm still in the break-in period for the Emira, but yesterday I ventured just north of 5k in 2nd for the first time (with the windows open a bit) and found that extra mid-range soundtrack that the 2GR and Eaton rotors make together. Yep, addicted to that now.