Emira should have started with 450hp.

[IanO]

The discussion of the current manual gearbox already being at it's limit in the Evora GT with 416hp keeps coming up, but where is the source of that information? Komo-tec clearly offers +70hp/+66lbft upgrades on the Evora without any modifications to the transmission.

I'm beginning to think it was a myth promulgated to convince people that more power isn't feasible in the Evora/Emira 6spd platform.

Transmission failure is usually through fatigue rather than instant failure. You can put more torque through it but don’t expect it to last the 100,000+ mile design life that manufacturers work to. I suspect most tuners are not considering that sort of life cycle.

I have seen performance upgrades for other vehicles where I know for a fact that the transmission will not last long term but it doesn’t stop people selling it.

If you are only expecting to do 20,000 miles in your car before selling it you should be ok. For the person who buys it off you, they may not be so lucky.

Can anyone think of a manual gearbox in a transverse engine installation rated to more than 420Nm? The highest I can think of is the Focus RS at 470Nm.

 

[switchlanez]

The discussion of the current manual gearbox already being at it's limit in the Evora GT with 416hp keeps coming up, but where is the source of that information? Komo-tec clearly offers +70hp/+66lbft upgrades on the Evora without any modifications to the transmission.

I'm beginning to think it was a myth promulgated to convince people that more power isn't feasible in the Evora/Emira 6spd platform.

I had the same doubt so I googled it. The claim is supported by anecdotal evidence on forums. And Toyota didn't make a manual transmission for the 2GR-FE so Lotus had to figure one out then evolve it with this laundry list of iterative improvements since the Evora's introduction:

You can modify any car for increased power and "most" stock transmissions will likely handle it (actually increased torque but that's implied as hp and torque are correlated). But "most" can can mean 95% of stock transmissions can handle it. What matters in this debate is failure rate over time/mileage. Aftermarket doesn't test against quality variances over tens of thousands of miles or across thousands of mass produced units. Even the bottom 20% in terms of quality need to be majority bulletproof transmissions--maybe <5% of that bottom 20% is allowed to fail, deferred to the 3-year warranty as contingency. That's <1% of total production.

Even if transmission failure on modded units were 5x worse (5% vs factory's 1%) among owners who mod, that 5% subset isn't always vocal online about it and may be in the single digits total. Numerically gives the impression of being a non-issue. But a 5% failure rate across thousands from factory would be unacceptable.

 

[NickR]

At the roadshow tour (now seems ages ago!) There was a chap from the lotus engineering team. I asked about transmission and why they didn't release the car with more power and his answer was 'due to the limitations of the transmission' then mentioned that the torque is the critical number which is the same as the 416hp engine.

 

[xen]

Is this limitation just for the manual or both manual and automatic?

 

[NickR]

Is this limitation just for the manual or both manual and automatic?

Both. I'm not sure they saw it as a limitation as they weren't trying to create a more powerful car. The ev range will be the ground up stuff.

 

[xen]

Both. I'm not sure they saw it as a limitation as they weren't trying to create a more powerful car. The ev range will be the ground up stuff.

Thanks. They’ve bumped the hp up across their performance variants, would have thought it obvious they’d want to push the torque figures as well? (Hence the limitation).

 

[NickR]

Thanks. They’ve bumped the hp up across their performance variants, would have thought it obvious they’d want to push the torque figures as well? (Hence the limitation).

I think it will happen ... If i were to make an educated guess i would say it would be a version of the i4. I can't see Lotus investing in a new transmission setup for the v6

 

[Daz]

I must admit that I like reading this sub section about how to squeeze more power out of the Emira, and fair play to anyone who wants more brake horse power. I must be the only person that has ordered an Emira that’s wondering if it has too much hp! I’m concerned that I will run out of ability/skill/luck/road before I run out of horses

 

[scoates]

I for one am happy with the 400hp figure for the V6 Emira. My Supra is the other faster car I've owned with 335hp and 500Nm torque, and for the roads near me it is plenty fast. My stock 200hp GT86 I find to be very entertaining and quick on the roads I usually drive! I think a lot of modern cars are low end torque for the "push you into the seat" feeling and the power trails off near the top end, my Supra does this and there's no "reward" for driving and it is so effortless to get into triple digits which is too quick for twisty back roads. The power delivery of my 86 rewards you for revving it out and you can really drive it hard at legal speeds. I'm hoping the Emira will almost blend the two, much harder acceleration than the 86, but still having that feeling of revving it out to get the best out of it, rather than a boot in the back at low end and nothing up top. Don't get me wrong, if a 450hp option was there from launch (and within my budget) I would go for it, but IMO for spirited road driving on twisty British back roads you really can't use much more than 400hp without encountering the police, another motorist, or a tree. Huge power is fun for a straight line blast, but there's nothing like wringing out all the performance, foot flat, top of the rev range fun which you can't get as readily on the road with big big power.

 

[MickOpalak]

A wise man once said: "if you can't go fast with 90hp then 900hp isn't going to help."

 

[ADC]

A wise man once said: "if you can't go fast with 90hp then 900hp isn't going to help."

As if you'd listen to that guy... he told 'em to put the engine in the wrong bloody place!

 

[Porter]

You can modify any car for increased power (actually torque but that's implied and hp and torque are correlated) and "most" stock transmissions will likely handle it. But "most" can vary, say from 90% to 95%. What matters in this debate is failure rate over time/mileage. Aftermarket doesn't test against quality variances over tens of thousands of miles or across thousands of mass produced units. Even the bottom 20% in terms of quality need to be majority bulletproof transmissions--maybe <5% of that bottom 20% is allowed to fail, deferred to the 3-year warranty as contingency. That's <1% of total production.

Even if transmission failure on modded units were 5x worse (5% vs factory's 1%) among owners who mod, that 5% subset isn't always vocal online about it and may be in the single digits total. Numerically gives the impression of being a non-issue. But a 5% failure rate across thousands from factory would be unacceptable.

If torque on the gearset over time is the concern, there's a simple way to improve matters... shorten the gearing. The final drive on the Lotus gearbox is fine for an Exige V6, when a light car is paired with a reasonably sized wheel/tire diameter. But on the Evora (and Emira), the heavier vehicle and larger wheel/tire diameter means the gearing is quite long for the car's sporting intentions and puts significantly more stress on the gears themselves. I mean the Exige V6 rear wheel/tire diameter is between 4 and 6 centimeters smaller than the Evora. That's an enormous difference in effective gearing. Difference in total circumference of as much as 178mm... or about 9%. Nine percent!!

On the Evora the shift from 2nd to 3rd gear is at ~70mph, and then at ~100mph from 3rd to 4th, which is an incredibly long total gear ratio from engine to tire. Shortening the final drive would reduce the effective torque on the gearset and would have the side benefit of making the car significantly quicker. Possibly explosively so. Of course there's a downside in that the traction control might be a bigger part of the driving experience than it is today. But for those who know how to fully exploit the charms of a car with more power than traction, it could add to the fun.

 

[kratedisease]

I had the same doubt so I googled it. The claim is supported by anecdotal evidence on forums. And Toyota didn't make a manual transmission for the 2GR-FE so Lotus had to figure one out then evolve it with this laundry list of iterative improvements since the Evora's introduction:

Thanks, your video posted .....puts to sleep any debate that the Emira should have arrived with 450HP.

I take back my comments complaining about the output. It is obvious that there is no manual transmission to handle anything more output.

explains everything, BTW what an excellent video.

 

[IanO]

Most high torque transverse transmission have fixed gears on the inshaft with the loose gears and synchro on the output shaft and the picture of the shafts in this video show the Toyota transmission is the same. This gives a more compact layout in a 3 shaft box and lower synchro forces for better shifting.

The downside is that the loose gears are excited by the combustion pulses and rattle, particularly noticeable at idle, so they are usually paired with a DMF to stop the rattle. DMF's are, however, prone to failure and generally have a high inertia which hurts engine response. Personally I'd go with the rattle and the better engine response from a low inertia flywheel so I rate that as a good choice by Lotus.

Let's just call it character if your passenger notices

 

[kratedisease]

More and more I dwell and think about it....... The EMIRA should not actually be cross shopped against the C8 corvette ( or Z06) or the Nissan GTR or other current high HP production cars.

But truth be told, the EMIRA is a better alternative than an older USED Ferrari manual or USED Lambo manual priced today at around $150k.

With the EMIRA you get the same/better exotic looks, without the wildly expensive upkeep, and you get a warranty with the option to buy a "extended warranty"/service contract which puts a cap on frightening explosive costly repairs for almost a decade.

With the EMIRA, you also get todays electronics and infotainment and other current tech. And the EMIRA will arrive new with that new car smell and no previous owner unknown history.

I guess 400HP is acceptable.

Humm........ a $150k USED Ferrari 360 Modena manual ( or a $200k F430 manual) with Russian roulette maintenance costs or a $95K EMIRA with a warranty and todays tech..... Easy choice.

 

[digilotus]

More and more I dwell and think about it....... The EMIRA should not actually be cross shopped against the C8 corvette ( or Z06) or the Nissan GTR or other current high HP production cars.

But truth be told, the EMIRA is a better alternative than an older USED Ferrari manual or USED Lambo manual priced today at around $150k.

With the EMIRA you get the same/better exotic looks, without the wildly expensive upkeep, and you get a warranty with the option to buy a "extended warranty"/service contract which puts a cap on frightening explosive costly repairs for almost a decade.

With the EMIRA, you also get todays electronics and infotainment and other current tech.

I guess 400HP is acceptable.

Humm........ a $150k USED Ferrari 360 Modena manual ( or a $200k F430 manual) with Russian roulette maintenance costs or a $95K EMIRA with a warranty and todays tech..... Easy choice.

This is so true. Exactly why I stopped looking at exotics and even new Porsche alternatives. Upkeep costs of Lotus, especially with the Toyota engine variant is almost Camry like and approx half the cost of an equivalent Porsche upkeep (during the warranty period). Post warranty most major engine parts are available at the local Toyota dealer. How damn awesome is that!

 

[kratedisease]

 

[PaulP]

Always figured those warranty plans were a scam - you ever actually use one?

 

[emiraspain]

After reading lots of posts I know that 90% of you are fully content with 400hp in the Emira.

I can certainly see your point and wont be attacking you for it or suggesting you get another car for sharing it. You are here as I guess you have placed an order and are entitled to your opinion.

I have had an Elise and sold it as I felt it was underpowered and the noise wasnt what I wanted and the interior quality was awful, but it looked cool.

I quite agree actually, 80k ish for a car with 400hp and not actually light at all is asking for trouble with the cayman gt4 and now their "final edition" car out there with an engine capable of revving to 9000 and a sound second to none, also manual available and a porsche quality control, proven over the years, which Lotus has us all hoping they can with some extra money come up to scratch. Its true the Evora, which lets face it, is a very very similar car, has more power available and hence I agree, I would have preferred to see about 440, which is probably the safety spot for the toyota engine and transmission etc, but its not to be, they are playing it on the safe side initially and giving themselves lots of room to charge another 20k for another 40hp later on. Harder suspension, lithium battery, 64 kilos less, 40HP more and 100k and they will be trying to tempt GT4 owners away while the interior of the cayman is 5 years out of date.... make straw while the sun shines.

At the same time, I am ordering the car as it is gorgeous and the sound will be very good, not porsche gt3/4 good, but good. It will handle well of course, but again, I dont believe it will be beating any GT4 around any track known to man, if that was important to anyone, which its not to me, well pride maybe.. but I wont be beating any track records so doesnt matter.
The thing is, all of us FE cars, are over paying by 15k of what the car will sell at in the end, as we want it now! Its really a 65k car, plus extras and hence at that price point its the best 2 plus 0.5 car out there with 400hp, looks wise too. If this was a real issue, we should wait and get the none FE cars a year later.... but I am 90% happy with it, power, looks, handling I am pretty sure will be good... quality, i am 75% sure will be good. The main issue I feel will be warranty and dealers that are not interested as they have not made any money and they say they dont make much on parts either.. so I hope its reliable!

Long waste of time message, to say, he has a point, but well he can also get it tuned for 1500 max and get the other 50HP easy enough.

 

[kratedisease]

Always figured those warranty plans were a scam - you ever actually use one?

I have purchased one for every car I have ever owned. The key is to buy them for dealer cost + $50 over,..... which this seller does.

The warranty carrier/company lost money on the coverage they sold me 6 times on 6 different cars they paid out claims on, ( twice big time costing them over $4500 for single repair.... twice) and once the contract broke even because the claim they paid was equal to what my cost for the premium was, and once they made $1500 profit off me since I had no clams.

Overall for the past 20 years I am ahead about $25,000 in claims they paid out vs what I paid in premiums to purchase all the coverage on my cars.

Garage queens don't need coverage, daily drivers do.