I'm out - the cancellations thread

[Leonard]

I agree and previously my experience with UK Lotus dealers has been excellent. A great buying experience new and they looked for used cars to my spec. Always happy to let me tyre kick and take cars out to test drive on my own. Good aftersales, although sometimes hampered by Hethel for parts, but argued my case for Lotus to pay for an outside warranty repair. Invitations to track days and events, tickets to Goodwood.

I feel sorry for them now they’ve become agents. No new cars to sell since mid 2021, expected to upgrade showrooms for a car where they now don’t get a showroom version. Kept in the dark on comms (most get their info from forums) and no influence over Hethel or customer care. Forced to do nannying test drives. Taken out of the process on PDI - but many will have to repeat it due to concerns about Hethel and BCA.

I'm suprised they can even survive.
Lotus will have demanded they tart up the dealership, put certain things in place to support EV and then what. They get a pittance commission cheque and none of the add on sales such as gap and the like either. Even all the servicing has been centralised and they get a rebate on that at a price set by Lotus (or so I believe)

 

[spice]

It is if he paid list from lotus but if you think your going to get the same private? I just don't see it 95k buys a lot of car now.

If you have the £80k cash available and really don’t want the car anymore it’s well worth a punt putting it up on collecting cars , full of private buyers and dealers bidding serious money on all sorts of cars , whats the best deposit return you can get at the mo 3/4 % pa , could return 20/30% instantly, Lotus dealers would probably be bidding .

 

[Dommo]

If you have the £80k cash available and really don’t want the car anymore it’s well worth a punt putting it up on collecting cars , full of private buyers and dealers bidding serious money on all sorts of cars , whats the best deposit return you can get at the mo 3/4 % pa , could return 20/30% instantly, Lotus dealers would probably be bidding .

You only need one to go on Collecting Cars and not to sell for over list price and then the rest on the market will be doomed! It's a real gamble in these uncertain months to come but if you're willing to keep the car if 'overs' aren't a thing then it's probably a gamble I'd take!

 

[Dabjbr]

My thought on flipping… even if I broke even or lost a few dollars but got to experience the Emira for let’s say a year, it would still be worth it.

If I made money, that would be icing on the cake.

 

[TomE]

It will hurt them a bit from a brand image perspective if dozens of cars sit in the classifieds for a long time not shifting.
But you are right they won't actually care as long as new orders jeep coming in

Lotus would be worried if they sat unsold but there's probably enough demand that they'll sell above list, if only a few £k worst case. Sellers in the first few months will be looking to get above list based on rarity and queue length. But if interest is thin they'll either sell them at list or offer them to a dealer or maybe just drive them for a year.

Lotus will have some control over the used prices too, as they will have the demo cars up for sale as "approved used" in 4-6 months time (whereas this would have been the dealers under the old model).

 

[New to Lotus]

Totally agree run the car enjoy it and if your lucky take a small loss, that's how it has worked for the last 50 years, now everybody thinks they can make money on cars! , they about to find out they can't.
Different times from 12 months ago.

 

[TomE]

My thought on flipping… even if I broke even or lost a few dollars but got to experience the Emira for let’s say a year, it would still be worth it.

If I made money, that would be icing on the cake.

I agree, that's possible and could be attractive. But it's not really flipping if you hold on to the car for a year.

 

[Dabjbr]

I agree, that's possible and could be attractive. But it's not really flipping if you hold on to the car for a year.

Fair enough. Maybe it’s better to say even if I lost 12k for 1 year of ownership, I would consider it a worthy quasi-lease.

 

[Pops68]

Lotus would be worried if they sat unsold but there's probably enough demand that they'll sell above list, if only a few £k worst case. Sellers in the first few months will be looking to get above list based on rarity and queue length. But if interest is thin they'll either sell them at list or offer them to a dealer or maybe just drive them for a year.

Lotus will have some control over the used prices too, as they will have the demo cars up for sale as "approved used" in 4-6 months time (whereas this would have been the dealers under the old model).

My guess is that unless these cars get a terrible reputation for poor quality (which I highly doubt), Lotus will sell every one they manage to churn out of the factory. I'm afraid our loyalty and willingness to give them deposits isn't going to make them care about us. I just went to a reveal party and discovered my dealer has 70people on the wait list and an allotment of 12 cars in '23. I asked my rep to let me know where I stand on the list and I have yet to receive an email so my guess is I'm pretty near the bottom which means I might....might receive a car before I die! that used Exige is looking better right now...

 

[spice]

Home delivery please , “ ok , what’s your delivery address “ oh can you just drop it here please .
Tom Hartley, 159 Moira Road, Overseal, Swadlincote, DE12 6JD.
that’s proper flipping , you don’t even see the car

 

[spice]

No doubt he will have one of the first ones

 

[BeHappy]

Home delivery please , “ ok , what’s your delivery address “ oh can you just drop it here please .
Tom Hartley, 159 Moira Road, Overseal, Swadlincote, DE12 6JD.
that’s proper flipping , you don’t even see the car

Tom will not even engage with you until you have physical car

 

[emiraspain]

Yes, can we establish what flipping is....
take the car, dont put more than the odd 100 miles on it...and sell it asap. Using it for several months and deciding its not for you is flipping sensible, but its not flipping flipping...

My thoughts for what they are worth, and thats not flipping much...
1. I agree collecting cars is the best bet initially and thats where I will be going if I sell my UK car, and I would imagine I would be one of, if not the 1st one there. Many users of that site, users who actually buy cars not just peruse, do not spend hours on piston heads, they just see cars there on their instagram feed or whatever, they want it and they bid it up. They spend more than the car is worth and more than the cars go for online elsewhere, and I speak from experience on the selling side. I sold my NOMAD there for about 55k and I had it on autotrader for 50k previously.
2. No Lotus dealers or any other dealers are going to be buying these cars flipped already at 85k or so. There is no real business in them paying 85k, having to prep the car again, give it showroom space, advertising, other associated sales costs, just to make 5k themselves IF they can sell it for 90k. This is not a business for a Lotus dealer ... but maybe for Dodgy Daren your nice neighbour who sells cars from his garden on instagram. A car dealer makes much more than 5k on a new car of 85k when you take into account individual sales profit and end of year meet targets bonus's etc. And the 5k we talk of is NOT guaranteed either.... each month it sits there, the 5k profit is going down and down and risk up and up.
3. The first 3 4 5 6 cars flipped should IMO sell for a GOOD margin as there will be those who will happily pay 10k to get something for their youtube channel or to show off to their mates or whatever and dont want to have to wait 15months for the car, when it is then almost out of fashion. The new 718 electric car, which I have "heard" is quite a stunner, will be revealed probably in 2023/early4 and will take the shine off, even though its not petrol/gas.
4. After this, if the car is very highly rated, which I think it wont be, then a 10k markup could stand for a good 3 4 5 6 months, easilly enough, and fade off down to 5 4 3 after that, especially as used cars enter the market, not 0 miles ones.
(If you think the idea of it not being highly rated is negative, well lets face it, those who did NOT order the car before driving it, ie shizzy and Harry and ALL OF US HERE, hence all those that have an actual subconscious will for it to be great, well these other "neutral" testers have all pretty much slated it and I mean it has been slated. Apart from the steering at best, there is nothing they "loved" about the car in reality. Sorry, RORY is the exception to that.....good old Rory!!!)
5. If like the Alpine, which was HIGHLY RATED BY EVERYONE, they sit for sale on autohedger / pistonass, at around list price, and I mean 10 at any one time, then the desire for the car will die down as people will realise its not that desirable, cant be that amazing, and there is NO money to be made either.

Its quite simple really.... Porsche's GT 3/4 / spyder / special edition cars in the UK fetch premiums of around 20-25% in normal times, not the current 50/60%. This is down to several factors:
- the UK pricing for these cars is VERY CHEAP compared to the rest of the EU, too cheap in reality, its almost like they are rewarding their better customers. Is the Emira FE that cheap in the UK??? Compared to the EU actually yes it is, but not in the same way the GT cars are compared to base cars, the FE IS A BASE CAR..so cant compare.
- the quantities are very low as we know and demand outweighs supply by about 10 - 1 in my opinion at that retail price. Is there a 10 - 1 demand for the FE? NO, the supply of the FE is unlimited in the UK pretty much.
- these cars, in the UK, are invite only, which makes them even more desirable. Is the Emira invite only...not on your nelly or mine.
- the GT cars, and I dont have one and never have had one, are possibly some of the best cars for the money that exist. Like them or loathe them, even Clarkson admitted it in the end. Paid or unpaid, you wont find a journalist that will in anyway shape or forum.... slate a GT3, its the pinnacle and there is no argument! The base Emira is not the pinnacle of Lotus, never mind the sector or sports cars.
I could go on (noooo dont!!!), suffice to say, I think as with many things, you need to make hay while the sun shines as winter is fast upon us, neither the Emira flipping opportunities or the sun will shine for long!!! This is NOT the best Lotus could do, its satisfactory and we will be content, but would most of us, any of us, pay 15k more for one? Some one will for sure...but none of us would, and the others away from here that will, well they wont for long.

SO go FLIPPING CRAZY...

 

[Leonard]

Tom will not even engage with you until you have physical car

I spoke to Tom Junior. He took my details but said he didn't think there would be enough interest to make it worth while for us both. Again quoting changing state of the market for this. And this was 4 months ago

 

[emiraspain]

I spoke to Tom Junior. He took my details but said he didn't think there would be enough interest to make it worth while for us both. Again quoting changing state of the market for this. And this was 4 months ago

exactly.. is not a gt car.... its not a 30k markup
A lotus dealer would want about 3-5k to make it worth their while....and thats with out them buying the car, just having it sat there while you own it still....

 

[Mctaff]

Collecting cars will find the appetite for these and the benchmark for early flipped cars https://collectingcars.com/ there’s the link , warning , it can get addictive

Why oh why did you have to share that link!!!!?

 

[TomE]

Yes, can we establish what flipping is....
take the car, dont put more than the odd 100 miles on it...and sell it asap. Using it for several months and deciding its not for you is flipping sensible, but its not flipping flipping...

My thoughts for what they are worth, and thats not flipping much...
1. I agree collecting cars is the best bet initially and thats where I will be going if I sell my UK car, and I would imagine I would be one of, if not the 1st one there. Many users of that site, users who actually buy cars not just peruse, do not spend hours on piston heads, they just see cars there on their instagram feed or whatever, they want it and they bid it up. They spend more than the car is worth and more than the cars go for online elsewhere, and I speak from experience on the selling side. I sold my NOMAD there for about 55k and I had it on autotrader for 50k previously.
2. No Lotus dealers or any other dealers are going to be buying these cars flipped already at 85k or so. There is no real business in them paying 85k, having to prep the car again, give it showroom space, advertising, other associated sales costs, just to make 5k themselves IF they can sell it for 90k. This is not a business for a Lotus dealer ... but maybe for Dodgy Daren your nice neighbour who sells cars from his garden on instagram. A car dealer makes much more than 5k on a new car of 85k when you take into account individual sales profit and end of year meet targets bonus's etc. And the 5k we talk of is NOT guaranteed either.... each month it sits there, the 5k profit is going down and down and risk up and up.
3. The first 3 4 5 6 cars flipped should IMO sell for a GOOD margin as there will be those who will happily pay 10k to get something for their youtube channel or to show off to their mates or whatever and dont want to have to wait 15months for the car, when it is then almost out of fashion. The new 718 electric car, which I have "heard" is quite a stunner, will be revealed probably in 2023/early4 and will take the shine off, even though its not petrol/gas.
4. After this, if the car is very highly rated, which I think it wont be, then a 10k markup could stand for a good 3 4 5 6 months, easilly enough, and fade off down to 5 4 3 after that, especially as used cars enter the market, not 0 miles ones.
(If you think the idea of it not being highly rated is negative, well lets face it, those who did NOT order the car before driving it, ie shizzy and Harry and ALL OF US HERE, hence all those that have an actual subconscious will for it to be great, well these other "neutral" testers have all pretty much slated it and I mean it has been slated. Apart from the steering at best, there is nothing they "loved" about the car in reality. Sorry, RORY is the exception to that.....good old Rory!!!)
5. If like the Alpine, which was HIGHLY RATED BY EVERYONE, they sit for sale on autohedger / pistonass, at around list price, and I mean 10 at any one time, then the desire for the car will die down as people will realise its not that desirable, cant be that amazing, and there is NO money to be made either.

Its quite simple really.... Porsche's GT 3/4 / spyder / special edition cars in the UK fetch premiums of around 20-25% in normal times, not the current 50/60%. This is down to several factors:
- the UK pricing for these cars is VERY CHEAP compared to the rest of the EU, too cheap in reality, its almost like they are rewarding their better customers. Is the Emira FE that cheap in the UK??? Compared to the EU actually yes it is, but not in the same way the GT cars are compared to base cars, the FE IS A BASE CAR..so cant compare.
- the quantities are very low as we know and demand outweighs supply by about 10 - 1 in my opinion at that retail price. Is there a 10 - 1 demand for the FE? NO, the supply of the FE is unlimited in the UK pretty much.
- these cars, in the UK, are invite only, which makes them even more desirable. Is the Emira invite only...not on your nelly or mine.
- the GT cars, and I dont have one and never have had one, are possibly some of the best cars for the money that exist. Like them or loathe them, even Clarkson admitted it in the end. Paid or unpaid, you wont find a journalist that will in anyway shape or forum.... slate a GT3, its the pinnacle and there is no argument! The base Emira is not the pinnacle of Lotus, never mind the sector or sports cars.
I could go on (noooo dont!!!), suffice to say, I think as with many things, you need to make hay while the sun shines as winter is fast upon us, neither the Emira flipping opportunities or the sun will shine for long!!! This is NOT the best Lotus could do, its satisfactory and we will be content, but would most of us, any of us, pay 15k more for one? Some one will for sure...but none of us would, and the others away from here that will, well they wont for long.

SO go FLIPPING CRAZY...

So in summary, you think there will only be a short window of opportunity for people to flip an Emira and that's likely to be at a small markup not a large one?

With the new Lotus UK model, I wonder how HQ will view a UK Lotus agent taking a newly-delivered customer car and advertising it for sale at a markup (either having bought it from the customer or offering it Sale Or Return)? I'm sure agents have got lists of people waiting for cars and test drives, so could easily publicise a car to that audience without advertising it. With zero miles on it, a full warranty and already PDI'd there would be very little work for the agent. I'm guessing Lotus will have tried to include something in the new agency agreements to cover this situation.

 

[John 1963]

£78145 , couple of grand for on the road , so £80k , how’s £95k not over ?

It’s not over because the dealer to sell fir 90k to 95k means the dealer will only give you 80 to 82k ; you will earn little the dealer a little after taking the px he will have to take ! The car is not an earner in any shape !

 

[emiraspain]

So in summary, you think there will only be a short window of opportunity for people to flip an Emira and that's likely to be at a small markup not a large one?

With the new Lotus UK model, I wonder how HQ will view a UK Lotus agent taking a newly-delivered customer car and advertising it for sale at a markup (either having bought it from the customer or offering it Sale Or Return)? I'm sure agents have got lists of people waiting for cars and test drives, so could easily publicise a car to that audience without advertising it. With zero miles on it, a full warranty and already PDI'd there would be very little work for the agent. I'm guessing Lotus will have tried to include something in the new agency agreements to cover this situation.

I wouldnt say small initially no.... In the right window, I think 15k is possible... ie auction
At a dealer, my best guess is 8 9 10k, where the dealer will want 30/40% of that.
Speaking to "my" UK dealer, it didnt seem as if he had people waiting for a car, although it would seem logical, but I feel most of the lotus FE customers are in the queue waiting and its not known to be so special as this list is big enough or certain enough to help the flippers out. Out of curiosity, I will certainly email a few UK dealers when I get the next email in the check out series to see if they do have at that point, people waiting for the flips.

Likewise in Spain there is no interest in a quick sale at the dealers, but then again, there is also no Demo yet and no big publicity push, hard to do without a car! *Demo next week I believe.

Yes, it will be interesting to see what Lotus think, but I think if there are big markups at agents, they will be happy as it shows desire. If they are selling at list, they will not be happy as it shows the opposite, but I doubt they can control it.

 

[Tonyshepp]

It’s not over because the dealer to sell fir 90k to 95k means the dealer will only give you 80 to 82k ; you will earn little the dealer a little after taking the px he will have to take ! The car is not an earner in any shape !

I was told on Thursday that a few people hadl already approached the agent to reslae their cars as they were bought as investments.