More details for KEF Audio

[Eagle7]

Exactly right Neve. There is no such phenomenon as speaker break in.

I worked for Harman (pro division) for 33 years and can assure anybody with a scientific frame of reference that the compliance and spider of a loudspeaker will change minimally if at all during the first years of use. Eventually it may break down due to environmental factors (all things age) but at that point, the performance of the driver will not be improved. Rather, it will be degraded.

Many improbable audiophile "facts" are functions of listener bias. What's breaking in is one's ears. KEF is indeed well known for taking a wholistic and scientific approach to speaker design. This suggests their goal would be flat power response which is a quality appreciated in the long term but does not always impress upon first listening.

I am a retired pro audio professional and generally shun discussions like this but what the hell! Fools rush in where angels fear to tread!

What did you do at Harmon?

I don't think it's the coil or driver that breaks in, I think it's the speaker cones. The coil is just pushing and pulling on that cone. The material seems to gain suppleness with repeated usage, like stiff muscles limbering up, and it's that improved ability to respond to subtleties that start to bring out more detail and better sound quality. As you know, bass frequencies cause bigger movement of the coil and cone, so improving the responsiveness of the cone material will enable it to reproduce and handle those frequencies faster and with more fidelity. I think that's what the "break-in" actually is.

My ears don't get better over time, in fact it's just the opposite as you get older. I listen to music on headphones a lot (I have a pair of Meze Empyreans), and I even use those when watching/listening to YouTube videos. I have a LOT of listening experience with these. After awhile you get to know the sound quality they make, and can (or at least I can) immediately notice when something's changed. Regardless of what testing equipment may show or not show, when something changes in your listening environment enough that it suddenly gets your attention, it isn't your imagination.

I know there are those who pooh-pooh this, but after decades of listening to music, my actual experience of experiencing this phenomenon repeatedly on many different brands of equipment tells me it's a real thing.

 

[seriously]

@Eagle7 i assume this happens with all speakers albeit likely subtle. I can’t remember ever experiencing something like with this KEF where i definitely noticed a difference in overall sound quality and bass response. When the car was brand new I had to max out the EQ to hear things and that just made everything unbalanced. The system now sounds “good” and I expect nearly as good as it will get.

 

[Eagle7]

@Eagle7 i assume this happens with all speakers albeit likely subtle. I can’t remember ever experiencing something like with this KEF where i definitely noticed a difference in overall sound quality and bass response. When the car was brand new I had to max out the EQ to hear things and that just made everything unbalanced. The system now sounds “good” and I expect nearly as good as it will get.

I agree. I think the reason why this phenomenon is more pronounced on high end speakers, is they tend to use higher quality, more expensive components. Speaker cones are not paper anymore like they used to be in the old days. Stiff, high-strength cones apparently need to be worked for awhile before they start to really limber up. If they're too flexible, they can't recover fast enough to reproduce everything they're being asked to. If they're too stiff, they don't like to move large distances quickly so bass frequencies suffer. Finding that sweet spot in the middle where it can do everything is (as I understand it) basically impossible for a single material, which is why you have speakers designed for different frequency ranges.

I've followed this for decades, and what we have now is truly amazing. What speaker designers can get small speakers to do today is just incredible to me, and it's all the newer, more advanced materials (along with computer assisted design) that makes it possible.

 

[Nova]

I believe @Lewquatious referenced the surround and spider becoming somewhat more supple within seconds/minutes of being initially used. In fact, it's likely that if any QA is performed on a driver and the loudspeaker, those test sequences have already caused the drivers to be "broken in" in this sense. I doubt there is any chance for a listener to notice this because it happens so quickly.

Speaker driver component materials are selected for stability and good internal damping. If a material changes significantly in its characteristics after some initial period of use, then it likely will be rejected for use in a speaker driver. It's very unlikely that the cone of a driver changes in any meaningful fashion within its useful life. KEF uses an aluminum cone, I believe for the reason that it acts as a waveguide for the tweeter and thus rigidity is a significant goal. They are able to form the aluminum cone into a very specific curve shape, with embossed elements, while maintaining light weight and long term stability. The downside of aluminum cone is inferior internal damping compared to paper, but here again, proper cone shape and filter design can largely avoid break-up peaks. In short, speaker cones themselves don't break-in. If they did, the driver designers would immediately stop using that material.

 

[scc.131.fe]

The change in mine was like flipping a switch, not at all gradual. Is it possible that KEF wanted/implemented a software feature to reduce system output for the first x hours of operation (ostensibly to let materials adjust?) and then automatically let off that brake for full-sound?

 

[seriously]

The change in mine was like flipping a switch, not at all gradual. Is it possible that KEF wanted/implemented a software feature to reduce system output for the first x hours of operation (ostensibly to let materials adjust?) and then automatically let off that brake for full-sound?

I think after the 1200 mile break in period, the KEF goes into Track Mode

 

[Lewquatious]

Sorry Lewquatious but after reviewing not only the OP (first post) on the thread you referenced, but others which quote different "scientific studies" and quote from various audiophiles, I'm left with the impression that this question of "speaker break-in" remains controversial with proponents on either side of the debate. That OP discusses test results after 3-4 hours, whereas others claim you need hundreds of hours on speakers, before they exhibit any real change. So I think it's possible that others noticing changes with the sound of their Emira KEF Audio systems, over time, may be onto something. For now at least, I remain "on the fence" (lol).

Did you follow my link? Human perception and especially sonic memory are very unreliable, not to mention the financial incentives unscrupulous marketers have in convincing gullible customers that their newly acquired electronics and transducers won’t give their best until after their return privileges have expired.

What did you do at Harmon?

I don't think it's the coil or driver that breaks in, I think it's the speaker cones. The coil is just pushing and pulling on that cone. The material seems to gain suppleness with repeated usage, like stiff muscles limbering up, and it's that improved ability to respond to subtleties that start to bring out more detail and better sound quality. As you know, bass frequencies cause bigger movement of the coil and cone, so improving the responsiveness of the cone material will enable it to reproduce and handle those frequencies faster and with more fidelity. I think that's what the "break-in" actually is.

My ears don't get better over time, in fact it's just the opposite as you get older. I listen to music on headphones a lot (I have a pair of Meze Empyreans), and I even use those when watching/listening to YouTube videos. I have a LOT of listening experience with these. After awhile you get to know the sound quality they make, and can (or at least I can) immediately notice when something's changed. Regardless of what testing equipment may show or not show, when something changes in your listening environment enough that it suddenly gets your attention, it isn't your imagination.

I know there are those who pooh-pooh this, but after decades of listening to music, my actual experience of experiencing this phenomenon repeatedly on many different brands of equipment tells me it's a real thing.

I was the JBL Professional field rep for the PNW region for 34 years. I was chairman of the PNW region of the Audio Engineering Society for three terms. I went to school in the discipline. What are your credentials?

I will be brief in my reply to you. What I said was that the compliance and spider of a transducer are the components that typically break down over time and that this is not beneficial for accuracy. Any actual speaker break in that might affect what a human could conceivably perceive occurs within the first few milliseconds of the transducer being initially activated. Please do follow the link I provided in my first post to this thread for a complete explanation of the utter lack of physical evidence in support of the rather specious rationale for speaker break in.

Retailers and manufacturers count on gullible consumers believing that it takes many hours for electronic products to break in as if one actually believes this, it makes a terrific argument against returning the product due to disappointment. You can’t really return something if you believe it has not yet reached its full performance potential.

Please follow the link I provided. The physical principles that govern sound reproduction are well understood and standards for measurement are equally well understood and correlate extremely well with what we hear. However, no proof of correlation is possible for people’s “beliefs.” Human psychoacoustics are complicated but not nearly as perplexing as the human penchant to believe what we want to believe in the face of evidence to the contrary.

 

[scc.131.fe]

What are your credentials?

Couldn't resist...

 

[Nova]

The change in mine was like flipping a switch, not at all gradual. Is it possible that KEF wanted/implemented a software feature to reduce system output for the first x hours of operation (ostensibly to let materials adjust?) and then automatically let off that brake for full-sound?

I also had a similar experience, but the "switch" flipped much earlier. I don't remember correctly, but might have been the 400 mile mark? I sent and did a "reset" of the audio settings in preparation to making some measurements and BOOM, there was bass.

I'm going to chalk this up to gremlins in the A2B bus or the Harman processor that is responsible for all of the DSP magic.

 

[Eagle7]

Did you follow my link? Human perception and especially sonic memory are very unreliable, not to mention the financial incentives unscrupulous marketers have in convincing gullible customers that their newly acquired electronics and transducers won’t give their best until after their return privileges have expired.

I was the JBL Professional field rep for the PNW region for 34 years. I was chairman of the PNW region of the Audio Engineering Society for three terms. I went to school in the discipline. What are your credentials?

I will be brief in my reply to you. What I said was that the compliance and spider of a transducer are the components that typically break down over time and that this is not beneficial for accuracy. Any actual speaker break in that might affect what a human could conceivably perceive occurs within the first few milliseconds of the transducer being initially activated. Please do follow the link I provided in my first post to this thread for a complete explanation of the utter lack of physical evidence in support of the rather specious rationale for speaker break in.

Retailers and manufacturers count on gullible consumers believing that it takes many hours for electronic products to break in as if one actually believes this, it makes a terrific argument against returning the product due to disappointment. You can’t really return something if you believe it has not yet reached its full performance potential.

Please follow the link I provided. The physical principles that govern sound reproduction are well understood and standards for measurement are equally well understood and correlate extremely well with what we hear. However, no proof of correlation is possible for people’s “beliefs.” Human psychoacoustics are complicated but not nearly as perplexing as the human penchant to believe what we want to believe in the face of evidence to the contrary.

I don't have any credentials. Nothing scientific, just been a musician for 60 years, and worked in a recording studio for 3, as well as personal experience using many many different speaker systems over those years. No disrespect, but I've known field reps for various companies over the years. What you listed as your credentials to me reads "I'm a sales rep, and have been for 34 years, and I took training courses for what I sold". Nothing wrong with that. I worked in sales too for many years, but that's not the same as an actual audio engineer who designs and tests audio gear. I've known those too. They're a different breed. Every sales rep for every company is always an expert for the product they represent, and absolutely positive what they're telling me is unquestionably true. That's the nature of sales reps. Everybody has a 'link' to prove what they told me is true.

I've experienced and learned many things over the decades, and one thing I've come to realize is while science can be formidable, it still can't explain everything. Regardless of what it's called, something is happening when you suddenly notice a change you weren't expecting or looking for. When that change is enough to get your attention, something happened. You can call it imagination, or whatever you like, but I'm not going to dismiss it because somebody in a lab isn't able to reproduce it.

If it was only me that was experiencing this, then yes, I'd go along with it's me that's changed, but when many many people report this same phenomenon, and have for years, something is actually happening.

As a musician, and having worked in a recording studio, I can tell you that people have various levels of hearing ability. You must have discovered this when dealing with customers. Music instruments that are the same models, have different sound characteristics from each other. Amplifiers that are the same models can have variances, with some just sounding better than others for some reason. You can call it imagination, but when you're used to working with certain things, and suddenly one stands out, you notice it. It is what it is. Based on my own personal experience, and what others are reporting, regardless of what you want to call it, something is changing in high-end speakers after they've had a certain number of hours of real-world usage.

 

[Eagle7]

I also had a similar experience, but the "switch" flipped much earlier. I don't remember correctly, but might have been the 400 mile mark? I sent and did a "reset" of the audio settings in preparation to making some measurements and BOOM, there was bass.

I'm going to chalk this up to gremlins in the A2B bus or the Harman processor that is responsible for all of the DSP magic.

When multiple people are reporting the same thing, that's not a gremlin. Something is happening. I've probably listened to my radio for less than an hour since I got the car. I like listening to the sound of the car too much lol.

 

[Fasttoys]

Did you follow my link? Human perception and especially sonic memory are very unreliable, not to mention the financial incentives unscrupulous marketers have in convincing gullible customers that their newly acquired electronics and transducers won’t give their best until after their return privileges have expired.

I was the JBL Professional field rep for the PNW region for 34 years. I was chairman of the PNW region of the Audio Engineering Society for three terms. I went to school in the discipline. What are your credentials?

I will be brief in my reply to you. What I said was that the compliance and spider of a transducer are the components that typically break down over time and that this is not beneficial for accuracy. Any actual speaker break in that might affect what a human could conceivably perceive occurs within the first few milliseconds of the transducer being initially activated. Please do follow the link I provided in my first post to this thread for a complete explanation of the utter lack of physical evidence in support of the rather specious rationale for speaker break in.

Retailers and manufacturers count on gullible consumers believing that it takes many hours for electronic products to break in as if one actually believes this, it makes a terrific argument against returning the product due to disappointment. You can’t really return something if you believe it has not yet reached its full performance potential.

Please follow the link I provided. The physical principles that govern sound reproduction are well understood and standards for measurement are equally well understood and correlate extremely well with what we hear. However, no proof of correlation is possible for people’s “beliefs.” Human psychoacoustics are complicated but not nearly as perplexing as the human penchant to believe what we want to believe in the face of evidence to the contrary.

When I bought my Evora in 2011 the first upgrade I did was a complete audio system upgrade. It was a pain in the A but it was night and day better. When I sat in the Emira and had about 8 plus hours in multiple cars with the KEF audio system, my first two comments OMG I need to do another upgrade. I think the system is lacking in many areas, I know a few that did a sub upgrade and it sounds much better, but still lacking compared to my B&O in my Audi Etron GT.

 

[Nova]

When multiple people are reporting the same thing, that's not a gremlin. Something is happening. I've probably listened to my radio for less than an hour since I got the car. I like listening to the sound of the car too much lol.

I don't understand the logic here. How does multiple people experiencing a problem preclude it from being a gremlin?

 

[Eagle7]

I don't understand the logic here. How does multiple people experiencing a problem preclude it from being a gremlin?

Problem? What problem? Are calling the KEF system getting better over time a problem??

 

[Nova]

Problem? What problem? Are calling the KEF system getting better over time a problem??

No the problem is that there appears to be some bass output level issue that either comes and goes or resolves itself. This is clearly a system problem of some sort. If the system can giveth, then it can also taketh away.

If you think a sudden increase in bass output is proof of "break in", well, I don't know what else to say.

 

[Fasttoys]

No the problem is that there appears to be some bass output level issue that either comes and goes or resolves itself. This is clearly a system problem of some sort. If the system can giveth, then it can also taketh away.

If you think a sudden increase in bass output is proof of "break in", well, I don't know what else to say.

To me it’s the Lotus owners making excuses for mediocrity for the car we love. Not being negative, we all say well it’s a Lotus with a giggle. The trunk not always opening well it’s a Lotus, the paint issues well it’s a Lotus., its missing a few bolts well it’s a Lotus. Electrical issues well it’s a Lotus. I got in many battles prior to this car arriving complaining about this system. IMO on their SUV they hit it out of the park, they used marketing by adding the Kef system to the Emira. No way Kef spent as much time working on this system like they did in the SUV. The SUB is a joke, a simple 500 added powered sub box tied into the sub amp makes the system 70% better. Only way to improve from that is a complete replacement. To me powered sub solves the problem you just loose some rear space, no biggie I guess I am the Love my Lotus guy.

 

[Nova]

To me it’s the Lotus owners making excuses for mediocrity for the car we love. Not being negative, we all say well it’s a Lotus with a giggle. The trunk not always opening well it’s a Lotus, the paint issues well it’s a Lotus., its missing a few bolts well it’s a Lotus. Electrical issues well it’s a Lotus. I got in many battles prior to this car arriving complaining about this system. IMO on their SUV they hit it out of the park, they used marketing by adding the Kef system to the Emira. No way Kef spent as much time working on this system like they did in the SUV. The SUB is a joke, a simple 500 added powered sub box tied into the sub amp makes the system 70% better. Only way to improve from that is a complete replacement. To me powered sub solves the problem you just loose some rear space, no biggie I guess I am the Love my Lotus guy.

Yea, the system having bass deficiency syndrome that resolves itself seems to be one of those Lotus quirks. I regard that as a separate topic from the overall quality of the KEF sound system itself.

The KEF sound system, when working correctly, is pretty good to my ears. The bass is definitely the weak point but even here it's not terrible. It's mediocre. My main issue with it is extension and not output level. The output level seems to keep up with the overall system output capability. It appears the main mistake here is the size of the driver. They appear to have enough space for a full 10 inch driver but decided on a much smaller 6x9 instead. I know some people have some specific feelings against the "fresh air sub" design, but IMO this is a non-issue. An infinite baffle speaker is a well understood design.

 

[Fasttoys]

Yea, the system having bass deficiency syndrome that resolves itself seems to be one of those Lotus quirks. I regard that as a separate topic from the overall quality of the KEF sound system itself.

The KEF sound system, when working correctly, is pretty good to my ears. The bass is definitely the weak point but even here it's not terrible. It's mediocre. My main issue with it is extension and not output level. The output level seems to keep up with the overall system output capability. It appears the main mistake here is the size of the driver. They appear to have enough space for a full 10 inch driver but decided on a much smaller 6x9 instead. I know some people have some specific feelings against the "fresh air sub" design, but IMO this is a non-issue. An infinite baffle speaker is a well understood design.

Understand it's all subjective as ever ear is different. But my complaint this is an Upgraded line item for those who dont by an LE, not sure its worth it and all the hype Lotus pumped out about the system.

 

[Nova]

Understand it's all subjective as ever ear is different. But my complaint this is an Upgraded line item for those who dont by an LE, not sure its worth it and all the hype Lotus pumped out about the system.

Oh I agree with the upgrade as a line item. I don't know if it is worth 2000. I may consider it for 1000. The Harman Kardon system upgrade in a BMW is about 1k. Personally, the biggest draw to tor KEF system before I heard it is how the grills look. I am a sucker for bling.

 

[benjh1028]

Did you follow my link? Human perception and especially sonic memory are very unreliable, not to mention the financial incentives unscrupulous marketers have in convincing gullible customers that their newly acquired electronics and transducers won’t give their best until after their return privileges have expired.

I was the JBL Professional field rep for the PNW region for 34 years. I was chairman of the PNW region of the Audio Engineering Society for three terms. I went to school in the discipline. What are your credentials?

I will be brief in my reply to you. What I said was that the compliance and spider of a transducer are the components that typically break down over time and that this is not beneficial for accuracy. Any actual speaker break in that might affect what a human could conceivably perceive occurs within the first few milliseconds of the transducer being initially activated. Please do follow the link I provided in my first post to this thread for a complete explanation of the utter lack of physical evidence in support of the rather specious rationale for speaker break in.

Retailers and manufacturers count on gullible consumers believing that it takes many hours for electronic products to break in as if one actually believes this, it makes a terrific argument against returning the product due to disappointment. You can’t really return something if you believe it has not yet reached its full performance potential.

Please follow the link I provided. The physical principles that govern sound reproduction are well understood and standards for measurement are equally well understood and correlate extremely well with what we hear. However, no proof of correlation is possible for people’s “beliefs.” Human psychoacoustics are complicated but not nearly as perplexing as the human penchant to believe what we want to believe in the face of evidence to the contrary.

A well presented assessment by a clearly QUALIFIED member. Thanks for the PROFESSIONAL insight.