More details for KEF Audio

[Lewquatious]

I don't have any credentials. Nothing scientific, just been a musician for 60 years, and worked in a recording studio for 3, as well as personal experience using many many different speaker systems over those years. No disrespect, but I've known field reps for various companies over the years. What you listed as your credentials to me reads "I'm a sales rep, and have been for 34 years, and I took training courses for what I sold". Nothing wrong with that. I worked in sales too for many years, but that's not the same as an actual audio engineer who designs and tests audio gear. I've known those too. They're a different breed. Every sales rep for every company is always an expert for the product they represent, and absolutely positive what they're telling me is unquestionably true. That's the nature of sales reps. Everybody has a 'link' to prove what they told me is true.

I've experienced and learned many things over the decades, and one thing I've come to realize is while science can be formidable, it still can't explain everything. Regardless of what it's called, something is happening when you suddenly notice a change you weren't expecting or looking for. When that change is enough to get your attention, something happened. You can call it imagination, or whatever you like, but I'm not going to dismiss it because somebody in a lab isn't able to reproduce it.

If it was only me that was experiencing this, then yes, I'd go along with it's me that's changed, but when many many people report this same phenomenon, and have for years, something is actually happening.

As a musician, and having worked in a recording studio, I can tell you that people have various levels of hearing ability. You must have discovered this when dealing with customers. Music instruments that are the same models, have different sound characteristics from each other. Amplifiers that are the same models can have variances, with some just sounding better than others for some reason. You can call it imagination, but when you're used to working with certain things, and suddenly one stands out, you notice it. It is what it is. Based on my own personal experience, and what others are reporting, regardless of what you want to call it, something is changing in high-end speakers after they've had a certain number of hours of real-world usage.

"I worked in a recording studio" is one of the oldest lines in the book. I used it a few times in bars and laundromats but it never really resonated with the ladies. I worked in a recording studio too, but it never got me to first base with anybody I would actually want to go out with. I didn't include that job as experience because you asked what I did for a living, not where I earned my EE or if I had studio experience. Things on the dating front actually improved significantly once I actually started making money in the trade. Did you ever actually work in a technical capacity for a factory that made audio devices? I did. You asked for my experience , I give it to you freely and then you explained to me that my 45 years in the business, my degree and the some of the positions I held doesn't qualify me to express factual data that would still be recognized science if I was a freshman engineering student rather than a pro in the field. Frankly, my credentials are irrelevant but the facts are the facts, Speaker break in is not a real thing.

Did you follow my link? I suspect not. It's easy to argue opinion against fact but once you know the physics of the thing, you're less likely to feel comfortable doing that.

Did you post on Lotustalk with a similar screen name (Eagle, if I recall correctly)? Just curious.

Hey, it's all in good fun. If you want to believe that audio electronics require extended break in, feel free to believe in it. It's just not something that is supported by the facts or considered a factor by Harman.....or KEF......when they design their products. Indeed, KEF is a very well respected manufacturer within the fold. Like Harman, that alone doesn't prevent them from designing better or worse products. It's simply that when they do build something, they know exactly why they made the compromises they did and what factors determine a product's performance envelope.

In reality, automobiles, like airplanes, are among the very worst native environments for reproducing accurate audio. I myself don't count the audio system performance in the first tier of features when deciding what performance car to buy. However, like you, I love music and the pleasure good sound brings but I never professionally engaged in 12 Volt design and it has never been a primary interest to me . But I worked professionally in the pro audio trade for 45 years in several capacities. If you lived in the Northwest and worked in the trade during my tenure (retired in 2010), you will know my name and my position in the community. None of that is important when arguing about break in though. What is important when arguing this is the physics, and those argue against the notion that electronics and transducers need extensive break in to perform to spec.

 

[seriously]

Oh I agree with the upgrade as a line item. I don't know if it is worth 2000. I may consider it for 1000. The Harman Kardon system upgrade in a BMW is about 1k. Personally, the biggest draw to tor KEF system before I heard it is how the grills look. I am a sucker for bling.

Love the grills. Don't like the empty tweeter spots!

 

[Sandalwood]

I just noticed the open-air sub is visible in this YouTube video at 1:21 (the link should go directly there). It's more obvious how it fits than in the previous diagrams I have seen.

 

[Eagle7]

"I worked in a recording studio" is one of the oldest lines in the book. I worked in a recording studio too, and it never got me to first base with anybody I would actually want to go out with. I didn't include that job as experience because you asked what I did for a living, not where I earned my EE or if I had studio experience. Things on the dating front actually improved significantly once I actually started making money in the trade. Did you ever actually work for a factory that made audio devices in a technical capacity? I did. You ask for my experience , I give it to you freely and then you explain to me that my 45 years in the business doesn't qualify me to express factual data that would still be recognized science if I was a freshman engineering student rather than a pro in the field. Frankly, my credentials are irrelevant but the facts are the facts, Speaker break in is not a real thing.

Did you follow my link? I suspect not. It's easy to argue opinion against fact but once you know the physics of the thing, you're less likely to feel comfortable doing that.

Did you post on Lotustalk with a similar screen name (Eagle, if I recall correctly)? Just curious.

Hey, it's all in good fun. If you want to believe that audio electronics require extended break in, feel free to believe in it. It's just not something that is supported by the facts or considered a factor by Harman.....or KEF......when they design their products.

I didn't work in a recording studio to get women. I was an electronics tech at the time, and I helped the build, wiring and setting up the electronics of a small private studio. I also continued on, assisting with recording. Yes, I did work in manufacturing; I worked at Rickenbacker for awhile. I was working there before you even started your 45 year career.

Here's the deal. Before we even got our cars here in the U.S., I said that the KEF system would sound somewhat wooden and flat at the beginning, but after around 25+ hours of usage, it would start to warm up and sound better. And sure enough, that's what's happening to multiple people, all of which report their surprise at suddenly noticing the change, yet somehow I don't know what I'm talking about. Whatever. Opinions don't magically reproduce themselves with multiple people when they didn't agree/believe, and suddenly discovered that what I said was actually true. Whatever you want to call it, it happens, and it happens predictably.

No I didn't check your link out, and I'm not going to go back through over 40 pages to find it. If you repost it, I'll take a look at it.

Yes I do post on Lotustalk on occasion; same name, Eagle7.

If you want to compare "links", prepare to be shocked. KEF most definitely considers break-in a factor: https://us.kef.com/blogs/news/some-facts-about-speaker-break-in-301371114

 

[Eagle7]

No the problem is that there appears to be some bass output level issue that either comes and goes or resolves itself. This is clearly a system problem of some sort. If the system can giveth, then it can also taketh away.

If you think a sudden increase in bass output is proof of "break in", well, I don't know what else to say.

If this was exclusive to this car and the KEF speakers we have in it, then I would say you may have a point. However, this phenomenon has been around a long time, with just about any high-end speaker and many many different audio setups.

I said it was going to happen, and it is happening; even you have experienced it now. If your own actual experience doesn't convince you, then I too don't know what else to say.

 

[Lewquatious]

Understand it's all subjective as ever ear is different. But my complaint this is an Upgraded line item for those who dont by an LE, not sure its worth it and all the hype Lotus pumped out about the system.

See my comment above. Cars are rough environments for audio, sports cars are even harder than sedans because of their space, power, acoustical properties (they're noisy too) and weight requirements. Despite this, I will usually opt for the upgrade if it's available in the car I'm interested in. Where I check out iOS actually making a buying decision based on the audio system. It's just not a very important factor for me in the big picture.

 

[Lewquatious]

I didn't work in a recording studio to get women. I was an electronics tech at the time, and I helped the build, wiring and setting up the electronics of a small private studio. I also continued on, assisting with recording. Yes, I did work in manufacturing; I worked at Rickenbacker for awhile. I was working there before you even started your 45 year career.

Here's the deal. Before we even got our cars here in the U.S., I said that the KEF system would sound somewhat wooden and flat at the beginning, but after around 25+ hours of usage, it would start to warm up and sound better. And sure enough, that's what's happening to multiple people, all of which report their surprise at suddenly noticing the change, yet somehow I don't know what I'm talking about. Whatever. Opinions don't magically reproduce themselves with multiple people when they didn't agree/believe, and suddenly discovered that what I said was actually true. Whatever you want to call it, it happens, and it happens predictably.

No I didn't check your link out, and I'm not going to go back through over 40 pages to find it. If you repost it, I'll take a look at it.

Yes I do post on Lotustalk on occasion; same name, Eagle7.

If you want to compare "links", prepare to be shocked. KEF most definitely considers break-in a factor: https://us.kef.com/blogs/news/some-facts-about-speaker-break-in-301371114

I suspected as much, certainly in respect to the link. If you didn't follow the link, you don't know the basis of the argument, laid out by a well respected and highly regarded EE. (Amir was THE VP of engineering for Microsoft in charge of their audio products and designs. I hope that's sufficient credential for you...he's an EE). What he says would improve your understanding of this not really complicated issue. Instead you argued with an ad hominem attack on me. Not nice.

Not knowing the science renders your arguments opinions, not fact. You know what they say about opinions. You really should follow the link to the science if you wish to discuss this topic with any degree of credibility. Humans are easily fooled when they allow their feelings to get in the way of the facts.

 

[Eagle7]

I suspected as much, certainly in respect to the link. If you didn't follow the link, you don't know the basis of the argument, laid out by a well respected and highly regarded EE. (Amir was THE VP of engineering for Microsoft in charge of their audio products and designs. I hope that's sufficient credential for you...he's an EE). What he says would improve your understanding of this not really complicated issue. Instead you argued with an ad hominem attack on me. Not nice.

Not knowing the science renders your arguments opinions, not fact. You know what they say about opinions. You really should follow the link to the science if you wish to discuss this topic with any degree of credibility. Humans are easily fooled when they allow their feelings to get in the way of the facts.

Considering that I have no idea who you are, you could be claiming anything; people do that on the internet you know. So repost your link if you want me to look at it.

 

[netsinah]

Here's the original link that Lewquatious posted previously (see post #777 on this thread):

Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

There are a lot of "everybody knows" type of rules in audio with one of them being that audio gear in general, and speakers in the specific, benefit from "break-in." That is, their performance improves after some time. This is mostly touted by audiophiles but manufacturers also fuel this...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Nova]

If this was exclusive to this car and the KEF speakers we have in it, then I would say you may have a point. However, this phenomenon has been around a long time, with just about any high-end speaker and many many different audio setups.

I said it was going to happen, and it is happening; even you have experienced it now. If your own actual experience doesn't convince you, then I too don't know what else to say.

No, I completely disagree. What's going on with the KEF system is very very different from the typical audiophile descriptions of break in. Sure, they use phrases like "the system comes alive with fullness" or "night and day difference" when describing break-in but invariably when pressed on the issue they retreat into excuses such as the improvement being more subtle or that you need to have a good resolving system to uncover the nuances. Never mind they have *NEVER* been able to corroborate these claimed audible differences with measurements - which should be exceedingly easy even for a novice. Heck, go take a pair of speakers that have good driver tolerances, break in one but not the other - demonstrate that the difference can be picked out in a blind A/B/X session.

What we are talking about in the KEF system is a sudden and instantaneous change, on the order of at least a 20dB increase in bass output - it is nearly completely absent one moment, and the next moment it's there. There is *NO* scenario where minute changes of a speaker driver or the electronics in an amplifier can cause this magnitude of change.

 

[netsinah]

Here's the original link that Lewquatious posted previously (see post #777 on this thread):

Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

There are a lot of "everybody knows" type of rules in audio with one of them being that audio gear in general, and speakers in the specific, benefit from "break-in." That is, their performance improves after some time. This is mostly touted by audiophiles but manufacturers also fuel this...

www.audiosciencereview.com

​

That said, I looked at some of that link. The original March 6/20 start of the thread, is an article which purports to "scientifically" refute the claim that there's any such thing as "speaker break-in". That looks to be what Lewquatious is relying upon, although I'll let him speak to that.

HOWEVER, if you continue reading the other posts in that same link:

1. the #3 posting quotes from a Klipsch blog, which says you need 100 hours of speaker use to properly break-in your speaker

2. the #5 posting on the link/thread, references another source who claims to have proven "scientifically" that "speaker break-in" exists. That post refers to a 20 hour and a different 40 hour test, whereas the original post that starts that same link (which Lewquatious looks to rely on) refers to a much shorter 3 to 4 hour test time. Here's the other source referred to by the person who contributed post #5:

https://web.archive.org/web/20200217004434/http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm

3. the #9 posting on the link/thread, quotes an article suggesting "speaker break-in" exists, however if you don't use your speakers for awhile, the process of speaker break-in will repeat itself

4. #10 posting calls out the #5 posting, saying any perceived "speaker break-in" is in reality, a person's changing hearing perception

5. #12 and #13 postings, suggest "speaker break-in" is real...although one of them is from a manufacturer manual

6. #34 post has a YouTube video, which may only be available using this thread, where someone talks at length about speaker break-in (he says it's real)

7. #48 quotes 3 different "scientific" articles or speaker reviews. The first one suggests speaker break-in exists, but it's temporary.

8. #61 purports to show "scientific" measurements, with the author saying that speaker break-in exists, but it's NOT audible

9. #67 takes some "scientific-type" measurements, with its author saying he needs more data before concluding if speaker break-in exists or not

10. #69: the author argues everyone has this issue wrong...it's the CABLES that need breaking in, NOT the speakers (why not muddy the waters further?!?)

11. #78 quotes from a "respected driver manufacturer" who says the break-in process is real

12. #95 references: "25 years ago, industrial audio consultant Dick Pierce wrote in the audio high-end newsgroup" stating that any break-in period occurs w/i the first few seconds of use and not beyond that

13. #107 posting, quotes from Dr. Toole, who dismisses the idea of speaker break-in

14. #120 posting suggests there is some sound change with use and provides measurements purporting to show same

NOTE: the above represents a review of the first 10 pages of the thread that Lewquatious refers us to. THERE ARE 85 PAGES IN TOTAL (as I type this) and some contributors are "for or against" the idea of whether speaker break-in exists. Keep in mind these postings are from "audiophiles" who live and breath this area. I suspect the debate will continue, regardless of what us "Emira-philes" say or do.

 

[Eagle7]

​

That said, I looked at some of that link. The original March 6/20 start of the thread, is an article which purports to "scientifically" refute the claim that there's any such thing as "speaker break-in". That looks to be what Lewquatious is relying upon, although I'll let him speak to that.

HOWEVER, if you continue reading the other posts in that same link:

1. the #3 posting quotes from a Klipsch blog, which says you need 100 hours of speaker use to properly break-in your speaker

2. the #5 posting on the link/thread, references another source who claims to have proven "scientifically" that "speaker break-in" exists. That post refers to a 20 hour and a different 40 hour test, whereas the original post that starts that same link (which Lewquatious looks to rely on) refers to a much shorter 3 to 4 hour test time. Here's the other source referred to by the person who contributed post #5:

https://web.archive.org/web/20200217004434/http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm

3. the #9 posting on the link/thread, quotes an article suggesting "speaker break-in" exists, however if you don't use your speakers for awhile, the process of speaker break-in will repeat itself

4. #10 posting calls out the #5 posting, saying any perceived "speaker break-in" is in reality, a person's changing hearing perception

5. #12 and #13 postings, suggest "speaker break-in" is real...although one of them is from a manufacturer manual

6. #34 post has a YouTube video, which may only be available using this thread, where someone talks at length about speaker break-in (he says it's real)

7. #48 quotes 3 different "scientific" articles or speaker reviews. The first one suggests speaker break-in exists, but it's temporary.

8. #61 purports to show "scientific" measurements, with the author saying that speaker break-in exists, but it's NOT audible

9. #67 takes some "scientific-type" measurements, with its author saying he needs more data before concluding if speaker break-in exists or not

10. #69: the author argues everyone has this issue wrong...it's the CABLES that need breaking in, NOT the speakers (why not muddy the waters further?!?)

11. #78 quotes from a "respected driver manufacturer" who says the break-in process is real

12. #95 references: "25 years ago, industrial audio consultant Dick Pierce wrote in the audio high-end newsgroup" stating that any break-in period occurs w/i the first few seconds of use and not beyond that

13. #107 posting, quotes from Dr. Toole, who dismisses the idea of speaker break-in

14. #120 posting suggests there is some sound change with use and provides measurements purporting to show same

NOTE: the above represents a review of the first 10 pages of the thread that Lewquatious refers us to. THERE ARE 85 PAGES IN TOTAL (as I type this) and some contributors are "for or against" the idea of whether speaker break-in exists. Keep in mind these postings are from "audiophiles" who live and breath this area. I suspect the debate will continue, regardless of what us "Emira-philes" say or do.

I was just about to post almost the same thing, after reading through more of the thread. The upshot of all that is, there really is no definitive answer. Some are able to hear a change, and others swear it doesn't happen. I suspect it may also have something to do with the different hearing capability of different people. Some have better and more accurate hearing than others. Some have greater range, and can hear more frequencies, especially high ones. It also has a lot to do with the sound source, both the quality of the recording and the type of music or sound.

After giving this more thought, there may be some kind of restrictor programmed into the KEF system to limit the power sent to the speakers (especially bass) until after a certain number of hours of use. Something similar to a restriction programmed into the car's ECU to limit full performance until after a certain number of miles (or hours) on the engine have been completed.

Whatever it is, whatever you want to all it, it's a real phenomenon.

 

[Sandalwood]

All right, my 2 cents.

I'm a bit of a hobbyist audiophile, and I never personally believed in burn-in. I did leave some room to believe that perhaps there are certain pieces of equipment that might have some change with hundreds of hours (i.e rubber diaphrams getting slightly more flexible with use), but I never believed the change in sound characteristics would be perceptible to human ears, and maybe would slightly show up on measurements via super scientific instruments; but even then, I figured maybe it's one of those things where you can measure it twice and get slightly different results each time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I guess I'm a skeptical audio hobbylist - I used to laugh at those guys on head-fi who swore that their digital MP3 players using a lexar SD card sounded warmer than when they used a sandisk SD card, ha!

Anyhow, what I believe there is irrelevant, just putting that out there to my mindset as I observe my emira's KEF system during the first 800 miles of ownership.

The first month or so, I found the audio system pretty bland. Not great, not bad, but maybe a smidge better than the standard non-premium bose stuff you get in porsches. I had EQ set the way I like.

As I got to know the car, I observed a weird "pop" sound coming from the back of the car every once in a while - like two or three times within a 1 hour drive. At first it sounded like an HVAC flap being shut closed via vaccum. But sometimes it also sounded like a subwoofer pop. Others have reported this sound as well. I only notice it when I'm stopped at idle, but perhaps it happens at speed too; and I just don't notice it due to the road and engine noise. But given the weird design of the subwoofer using inside/outside air, I wonder if this quirk is related.

ANYWAYS - all this is to say, yesterday something weird happened, and all of a sudden, my music that I'd been listening to regularly in this car via carplay, was suddenly super bassy. Like, rattling the interior trim bassy. It never did this before.

I don't attribute this to burn-in/breakin, as the change was too sudden. But something did change and I have no idea what. I had to go into the EQ and turn the bass setting down two stops for it to sound 'normal' again without it buzzing in the housing.

weird stuff.

Makes me wonder if there's some kind of a piece of film or tape over something that eventually dislodges and improves airflow?

 

[Nova]

I was just about to post almost the same thing, after reading through more of the thread. The upshot of all that is, there really is no definitive answer. Some are able to hear a change, and others swear it doesn't happen. I suspect it may also have something to do with the different hearing capability of different people. Some have better and more accurate hearing than others. Some have greater range, and can hear more frequencies, especially high ones. It also has a lot to do with the sound source, both the quality of the recording and the type of music or sound.

After giving this more thought, there may be some kind of restrictor programmed into the KEF system to limit the power sent to the speakers (especially bass) until after a certain number of hours of use. Something similar to a restriction programmed into the car's ECU to limit full performance until after a certain number of miles (or hours) on the engine have been completed.

Whatever it is, whatever you want to all it, it's a real phenomenon.

Yea, exactly as I pointed out, this is a common cop out for people who can't prove the audibility of break in, they cast negative aspersions to the hearing capability of others.

Can you clarify your prior insistence that it's the cone that breaks in, while all of the discussions back and forth, even those that support the idea of speaker break-in has been focused on the suspension/spider of the driver, just as @Lewquatious and I described, multiple times in this thread.

 

[Nova]

​

That said, I looked at some of that link. The original March 6/20 start of the thread, is an article which purports to "scientifically" refute the claim that there's any such thing as "speaker break-in". That looks to be what Lewquatious is relying upon, although I'll let him speak to that.

HOWEVER, if you continue reading the other posts in that same link:

1. the #3 posting quotes from a Klipsch blog, which says you need 100 hours of speaker use to properly break-in your speaker

2. the #5 posting on the link/thread, references another source who claims to have proven "scientifically" that "speaker break-in" exists. That post refers to a 20 hour and a different 40 hour test, whereas the original post that starts that same link (which Lewquatious looks to rely on) refers to a much shorter 3 to 4 hour test time. Here's the other source referred to by the person who contributed post #5:

https://web.archive.org/web/20200217004434/http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm

3. the #9 posting on the link/thread, quotes an article suggesting "speaker break-in" exists, however if you don't use your speakers for awhile, the process of speaker break-in will repeat itself

4. #10 posting calls out the #5 posting, saying any perceived "speaker break-in" is in reality, a person's changing hearing perception

5. #12 and #13 postings, suggest "speaker break-in" is real...although one of them is from a manufacturer manual

6. #34 post has a YouTube video, which may only be available using this thread, where someone talks at length about speaker break-in (he says it's real)

7. #48 quotes 3 different "scientific" articles or speaker reviews. The first one suggests speaker break-in exists, but it's temporary.

8. #61 purports to show "scientific" measurements, with the author saying that speaker break-in exists, but it's NOT audible

9. #67 takes some "scientific-type" measurements, with its author saying he needs more data before concluding if speaker break-in exists or not

10. #69: the author argues everyone has this issue wrong...it's the CABLES that need breaking in, NOT the speakers (why not muddy the waters further?!?)

11. #78 quotes from a "respected driver manufacturer" who says the break-in process is real

12. #95 references: "25 years ago, industrial audio consultant Dick Pierce wrote in the audio high-end newsgroup" stating that any break-in period occurs w/i the first few seconds of use and not beyond that

13. #107 posting, quotes from Dr. Toole, who dismisses the idea of speaker break-in

14. #120 posting suggests there is some sound change with use and provides measurements purporting to show same

NOTE: the above represents a review of the first 10 pages of the thread that Lewquatious refers us to. THERE ARE 85 PAGES IN TOTAL (as I type this) and some contributors are "for or against" the idea of whether speaker break-in exists. Keep in mind these postings are from "audiophiles" who live and breath this area. I suspect the debate will continue, regardless of what us "Emira-philes" say or do.

Thanks for the helpful summaries. The thing with audio equipment is that there are two different concepts: measurable difference and audible differences. There is almost always a measurable difference. The exact same driver measured 1 minute apart will show a difference in the measurements due to slight variations in the measuring equipment, contact, and environmental conditions such as temperature, air pressure, and the orientation of the driver. No two speakers measure exactly the same. Speakers with good manufacturing tolerance will be within about 1dB of each other across the frequency range for a matched pair. 1dB is generally used as a rule of thumb as the threshold of audible difference between wide band signals. We are more sensitive to single note tones, especially in the midrange, but our sensitivity and ability to tell differences in sound decreases in the low bass and upper treble regions.

Lets take item #2. GR Research did a study of a driver that was subjected to a variety of break-in. He triumphantly declared that there was a measurable difference. Not so fast - first he ignored the concept of steady state operation. As a speaker plays, it warms up and enters a equilibrium point. Speaker parameter captured in this condition are the only valid parameters. It matters little what the at-rest parameters are. Whether a speaker "returns" to some parameter value at rest is completely irrelevant, yet he seems to make a big deal about this. But lets compare the 10 second break in and the 20/40 hour break in - he points out some seemingly significant changes in the Fs and Vas but any speaker designer knows that even seemingly large changes in these figures usually amount to very little audible differences. Speaker drivers are usually specified with a +/-15% tolerance on the Fs, and his 40 hour break in resulted in a 11% decrease of the Fs - within the tolerance of the driver. His calculations revealed that this change would result in a 3Hz decrease in the -3dB point. I challenge anyone to be able to hear the difference in have a 3Hz lower -3dB point. One last nit-pick: the driver he broke in for 10 seconds did not reach steady state operations, he should have played some normal materials - just a few minutes worth, to allow the driver to come up to normal operation conditions before taking a measurement. Similarly, the drivers he broke in for 20 or 40 hours should have been allowed to cool down to normal steady state temperatures before measurements are taken. If the steady state operating conditions of the drivers had been maintained, I would expect his measurements would yield even smaller differences between the 10-second break in and 20/40 hour break in, probably between 1-2Hz difference in the -3dB point. Completely inaudible.

 

[Eagle7]

Yea, exactly as I pointed out, this is a common cop out for people who can't prove the audibility of break in, they cast negative aspersions to the hearing capability of others.

Can you clarify your prior insistence that it's the cone that breaks in, while all of the discussions back and forth, even those that support the idea of speaker break-in has been focused on the suspension/spider of the driver, just as @Lewquatious and I described, multiple times in this thread.

Am I reading this right? You think that me pointing out that people have different levels of hearing ability is casting "negative aspersions" to the hearing ability of others??? I guess you're not a musician. It's not an insult or an "aspersion", it's just a simple fact of life. People have different abilities in many areas. Some people have perfect pitch, while others aren't able to sing and hold pitch or sing on key. This is why auto tune was created, so people who can't sing on pitch can sing and the computer will fix it.

Ok, it's starting to look like you've decided you want to be stuck on one point for whatever reason. I did clarify my thoughts on it (the part somewhere in posts above about speaker material limbering up). It was a guess of mine, and I too have said "multiple times in this thread" that you or anyone else can call it "whatever you want to call it". I don't care. It's just a phenomenon I've experienced and observed many times over the years, and I'm not the only one.

 

[Eagle7]

All right, my 2 cents.

I'm a bit of a hobbyist audiophile, and I never personally believed in burn-in. I did leave some room to believe that perhaps there are certain pieces of equipment that might have some change with hundreds of hours (i.e rubber diaphrams getting slightly more flexible with use), but I never believed the change in sound characteristics would be perceptible to human ears, and maybe would slightly show up on measurements via super scientific instruments; but even then, I figured maybe it's one of those things where you can measure it twice and get slightly different results each time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I guess I'm a skeptical audio hobbylist - I used to laugh at those guys on head-fi who swore that their digital MP3 players using a lexar SD card sounded warmer than when they used a sandisk SD card, ha!

Anyhow, what I believe there is irrelevant, just putting that out there to my mindset as I observe my emira's KEF system during the first 800 miles of ownership.

The first month or so, I found the audio system pretty bland. Not great, not bad, but maybe a smidge better than the standard non-premium bose stuff you get in porsches. I had EQ set the way I like.

As I got to know the car, I observed a weird "pop" sound coming from the back of the car every once in a while - like two or three times within a 1 hour drive. At first it sounded like an HVAC flap being shut closed via vaccum. But sometimes it also sounded like a subwoofer pop. Others have reported this sound as well. I only notice it when I'm stopped at idle, but perhaps it happens at speed too; and I just don't notice it due to the road and engine noise. But given the weird design of the subwoofer using inside/outside air, I wonder if this quirk is related.

ANYWAYS - all this is to say, yesterday something weird happened, and all of a sudden, my music that I'd been listening to regularly in this car via carplay, was suddenly super bassy. Like, rattling the interior trim bassy. It never did this before.

I don't attribute this to burn-in/breakin, as the change was too sudden. But something did change and I have no idea what. I had to go into the EQ and turn the bass setting down two stops for it to sound 'normal' again without it buzzing in the housing.

weird stuff.

That's not the effect of break-in; it's nowhere near that dramatic, more like a warming up of the sound. What you described and a few others now, sounds more along the lines of something like this which I posted earlier. I'll copy and paste it verbatim below, and even put it in quotes and italicize it so I can refer back to the original when this statement gets jumped on by whomever thinks that's necessary.

"After giving this more thought, there may be some kind of restrictor programmed into the KEF system to limit the power sent to the speakers (especially bass) until after a certain number of hours of use. Something similar to a restriction programmed into the car's ECU to limit full performance until after a certain number of miles (or hours) on the engine have been completed."

Just an idea as to what might be happening.

 

[Nova]

Am I reading this right? You think that me pointing out that people have different levels of hearing ability is casting "negative aspersions" to the hearing ability of others??? I guess you're not a musician. It's not an insult or an "aspersion", it's just a simple fact of life. People have different abilities in many areas. Some people have perfect pitch, while others aren't able to sing and hold pitch or sing on key. This is why auto tune was created, so people who can't sing on pitch can sing and the computer will fix it.

Ok, it's starting to look like you've decided you want to be stuck on one point for whatever reason. I did clarify my thoughts on it (the part somewhere in posts above about speaker material limbering up). It was a guess of mine, and I too have said "multiple times in this thread" that you or anyone else can call it "whatever you want to call it". I don't care. It's just a phenomenon I've experienced and observed many times over the years, and I'm not the only one.

Now you are just gas lighting people. You said what you said, it's a common tactic by people who claim speaker break in is an audible phenomenon to dismiss those with a different claim as simply having inferior hearing. I even pointed it out before you went ahead and made this exact insinuation. Maybe with your immense life experience, you feel especially well equipped to be the authority on a variety of topics, causing you to be dismissive of others, even when you are wrong. You may not even realize you are doing it. As you said, people have different abilities, be open to the possibility that you are not an authority on the functioning of speakers and sound systems.

Look, @Eagle7, I respect much of the contribution you have made to the community. I enjoy a lot of what you've written. You don't need my validation, I am just staying I don't have a personal need to disagree with you. On this topic, your logic and claims have been self contradictory and your reference to certain scientific facts have been often irrelevant or plainly wrong. I have pointed this out several times already. You may have cleared up your comment about speaker cones, but at the time you made the original claim you were doing so quite confidently and dismissive of the well understood scientific facts that others offered.

You may think I am stuck on a single point, but this is because I find it helpful to focus on just one point, show you the available evidence, to at least get you to see the possibility that you have misunderstood things. With that small opening now made, perhaps you would be willing to reexamined your other beliefs on the matter. If your understanding of the mechanisms of break in was incorrect, what other driver change could account for the audible differences you heard, aren't you curious?

 

[Nova]

That's not the effect of break-in; it's nowhere near that dramatic, more like a warming up of the sound. What you described and a few others now, sounds more along the lines of something like this which I posted earlier. I'll copy and paste it verbatim below, and even put it in quotes and italicize it so I can refer back to the original when this statement gets jumped on by whomever thinks that's necessary.

"After giving this more thought, there may be some kind of restrictor programmed into the KEF system to limit the power sent to the speakers (especially bass) until after a certain number of hours of use. Something similar to a restriction programmed into the car's ECU to limit full performance until after a certain number of miles (or hours) on the engine have been completed."

Just an idea as to what might be happening.

The drama is unnecessary, you made that comment literally just a few posts up. Prior to this you made multiple posts in which you were confidently dismissive of the suggestion that this was some type of system issue or gremlin. You were absolutely convinced that it is an example of break in and couldn't believe that others didn't see things how you saw it.

I guess now you are claiming that it's still break-in, just one where the system designers made it this way. I have never heard of anything like this ever being done to any piece of audio hardware. I can't fathom a reason why this would be necessary. It just doesn't make any sense. My money is still on system gremlins.

 

[Nova]

All right, my 2 cents.

I'm a bit of a hobbyist audiophile, and I never personally believed in burn-in. I did leave some room to believe that perhaps there are certain pieces of equipment that might have some change with hundreds of hours (i.e rubber diaphrams getting slightly more flexible with use), but I never believed the change in sound characteristics would be perceptible to human ears, and maybe would slightly show up on measurements via super scientific instruments; but even then, I figured maybe it's one of those things where you can measure it twice and get slightly different results each time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I guess I'm a skeptical audio hobbylist - I used to laugh at those guys on head-fi who swore that their digital MP3 players using a lexar SD card sounded warmer than when they used a sandisk SD card, ha!

Anyhow, what I believe there is irrelevant, just putting that out there to my mindset as I observe my emira's KEF system during the first 800 miles of ownership.

The first month or so, I found the audio system pretty bland. Not great, not bad, but maybe a smidge better than the standard non-premium bose stuff you get in porsches. I had EQ set the way I like.

As I got to know the car, I observed a weird "pop" sound coming from the back of the car every once in a while - like two or three times within a 1 hour drive. At first it sounded like an HVAC flap being shut closed via vaccum. But sometimes it also sounded like a subwoofer pop. Others have reported this sound as well. I only notice it when I'm stopped at idle, but perhaps it happens at speed too; and I just don't notice it due to the road and engine noise. But given the weird design of the subwoofer using inside/outside air, I wonder if this quirk is related.

ANYWAYS - all this is to say, yesterday something weird happened, and all of a sudden, my music that I'd been listening to regularly in this car via carplay, was suddenly super bassy. Like, rattling the interior trim bassy. It never did this before.

I don't attribute this to burn-in/breakin, as the change was too sudden. But something did change and I have no idea what. I had to go into the EQ and turn the bass setting down two stops for it to sound 'normal' again without it buzzing in the housing.

weird stuff.

Yea, this is the same phenomenon that others have described, including me. In my case, I drove it for about 400 miles and was trying to take a frequency response measurement of the system. I did a reset of the audio system settings and suddenly there was bass. It was very thin sounding before that. It has been bassy ever since. My theory is that the communications or the DSP configuration of the Harman audio module/amp gets into some undetermined state that limits or cuts the bass output signal to the bass amp/channel. This could have happened as the system gets installed and the various stages of assembly turns the system on/off while still incomplete and the error condition is introduced there. This gets sorted out when the sound system configuration gets "refreshed" by a reset or periodic self refresh triggered by some event. I don't believe it's by design.