U.S. Update: Allocation & Order Date

[darkling]

funny you say that about the zo6 lotus b chevy just announced that if they find any dealer playing games with the zo6 their allocation will be given away only took 3 years 30k markups

 

[Mike-engel]

No hostility at all...

Which point and what is "this?"

What is "that?"

How has Lotus disregarded its customers?

1. When you tell people to “grow up” and compare their point to “crap” expressed by your children, that’s insulting and hostile.

2. “This” refers to customers expecting to pay the first edition price for a first edition spec, then learning that might not be the case.

3. “That” refers to alienating the customers whose loyalty a lotus should be trying to secure.

4. They disregard their customer by intimating a first edition spec for the first edition price, and perpetuating that belief by failing to communicate that a limit would set (and even some hearing that they would be able to secure a first edition car as long as their deposit was placed by a given date—something that I think had been discussed on this forum).

Now to be fair, this could indeed be a reflection of dealer comms instead of lotus comms. But in the end dealer misinformation, no matter the intention, impacts how customers feel about their experience and ultimately it’s lotus left to suffering the consequences.

 

[DF_Toronto]

1. When you tell people to “grow up” and compare their point to “crap” expressed by your children, that’s insulting and hostile.

2. “This” refers to customers expecting to pay the first edition price for a first edition spec, then learning that might not be the case.

3. “That” refers to alienating the customers whose loyalty a lotus should be trying to secure.

4. They disregard their customer by intimating a first edition spec for the first edition price, and perpetuating that belief by failing to communicate that a limit would set (and even some hearing that they would be able to secure a first edition car as long as their deposit was placed by a given date—something that I think had been discussed on this forum).

Now to be fair, this could indeed be a reflection of dealer comms instead of lotus comms. But in the end dealer misinformation, no matter the intention, impacts how customers feel about their experience and ultimately it’s lotus left to suffering the consequences.

 

[LotusB]

1. When you tell people to “grow up” and compare their point to “crap” expressed by your children, that’s insulting and hostile.

Hostile? LOL! Anyway, let's get to the point..... I'm genuinely curious what Lotus has done wrong.

2. “This” refers to customers expecting to pay the first edition price for a first edition spec, then learning that might not be the case.

Were expectations based on promises made or wishful thoughts? If promises, which and by whom? To be clear, I'm looking for an official statement with a link.

3. “That” refers to alienating the customers whose loyalty a lotus should be trying to secure.

Again, you're not explaining how Lotus is alienating customers. What specifically are they doing to makes you say that?

4. They disregard their customer by intimating a first edition spec for the first edition price, and perpetuating that belief by failing to communicate that a limit would set (and even some hearing that they would be able to secure a first edition car as long as their deposit was placed by a given date—something that I think had been discussed on this forum).

They announced the price and spec of the First Edition, this is true. Now, what are they perpetuating by not talking to you? They communicated the aforementioned information publicly and gave dealers their allocations. If you call your dealer they should be able to tell you whether you got an allocation or not. Is the dealer holding that information from you?

Nobody has [officially] said you'll get a First Edition as long as a deposit is placed by a given date. Now, if you were mislead by a rumor said on the forum, that's not something Lotus has to answer to.

Now to be fair, this could indeed be a reflection of dealer comms instead of lotus comms. But in the end dealer misinformation, no matter the intention, impacts how customers feel about their experience and ultimately it’s lotus left to suffering the consequences.

I think the communication has been lacking, but to be fair there wasn't much to communicate. Lotus has put their cards on the table and told us what they had. In hind-sight, they didn't leave much to the imagination.

As they learned about the success of the launch they publicly said how surprised they were and that they would hire a second shift to try and meet the demand. They've increased the original number of First Editions by 40%.

Additionally, in the past couple of weeks all of the dealers had received their allocation numbers. So now that they know they can communicate that information to customers. From here on out, you're dealing with the dealer. If you're interested in the car, stay the course and get it when your turn comes up. If not buy something else (or get on a waiting list for something else).

 

[Mike-engel]

We all know communication has been poor and we are all super excited (especially us forum member enthusiasts). When my dealer called me earlier this week to [finally] update me on ordering and delivery timeframe, I told him how nice it was to actually get an update and we've had basically radio silence since making the deposit and then getting the official pricing email from Lotus on October 1st. It was somewhat reassuring when he replied that they only contacts customers when there is 100% solid information to relay directly from Lotus and that they know there is a ton of information on these forums (some rumors and speculation and some only apply to certain regions), but when there is solid information to share, we'll get it.

I think the US dealers have their hands tied a bit. Not only are they few and far between here in the states, but Lotus corporate is clearly overwhelmed with the Emira response and doing everything they can to get production ramped up and working smoothly. Not to mention getting the press cars out and handling everything with PR and customer service. They're a small company and the demand is HUGE!!!

I think the car will be worth the wait and hoping there won't be any more major delays or hiccups along the way. Maybe we'll even get an earlier than expected production update! The pessimist inside is 100% certain these Oct-Dec deliveries will surely be pushed to 2023, but I'm really trying hard to stay positive here.

They could simply contract with a pr firm to manage communications. It would be a great move by them and not really that expensive. Lots of bang for the buck. I could even make some recommendations on firms well suited to the task

 

[TomE]

They could simply contract with a pr firm to manage communications. It would be a great move by them and not really that expensive. Lots of bang for the buck. I could even make some recommendations on firms well suited to the task

They have a PR team, marketing team, comms team, customer care team etc. As I've said elsewhere, what we're seeing on comms approach by Lotus is their deliberately chosen strategy not lack of expertise or bandwidth.

 

[Eagle7]

I've been reading through things the last couple of days, and I do feel bad for how some of this is playing out, but it helps to stop a moment, and look at things from Lotus perspective. Only 7 months ago, they rolled out a non-running studio model, and a running proof-of-concept car at Goodwood, hoping they'd at least get a warm reception to them. They didn't. They got a super-nova, which they had no idea would happen, and thus weren't prepared for it. To go from that moment, to being able to produce thousands of cars starting next month, is an incredible achievement. Though I may or may not get an FE (depends on if a couple of people drop out or not), I have to give credit where credit's due, and acknowledge the tremendous amount of work that everyone at Lotus has to have put in, in order to be ready next month to produce sellable cars.

Yes they could have done some things better, especially communications, but I know none of us on the outside have any idea how much pressure Matt and the crew have been under to get to where they are right now, which I think is pretty impressive for only 7 months. Kudos to all of them for this.

The situation with dealers in the U.S. is a struggle for every brand. I believe Chevy has over 3,000 dealers in the U.S. They're based in the U.S. and build in the U.S., and even they have issues with dealers. There's probably more Chevy dealers just in California alone, than Lotus has in the entire country. This puts Lotus in an awkward position because that doesn't leave customers with much choice for who to do business with. If you don't like the experience at a Chevy dealer, there's thousands of others you can do business with. We don't have that luxury with Lotus. If you're unhappy with your dealer, contact Lotus, and it might also be worth contacting the Better Business Bureau, as well as the District Attorney in the city where the dealer is. Although unless the dealer is violating a written contract, there's not much that can be done legally if they're changing the price after saying something else earlier. Legally, if you don't have it in writing, it didn't happen, unless you have video or something to prove what was promised.

The situation with the Z06 has been so bad, that Chevy has taken the unprecedented step of telling the offending dealers, that if they abuse the ordering and mark-up process, they'll give that dealer's allocation to somebody else, and they won't get any cars at all. We'll see how this plays out, because I can imagine lawyers are already getting involved, but I believe Chevy has a good legal basis for this, as it reflects on the brand, and dealers are required to not say or do anything that could harm the name and reputation of the company. Lotus should have this same recourse, but it's a touchy situation for them since they aren't here, they're in the U.K., and they don't have a huge dealer network to make these kinds of legal moves. GM has a building full of lawyers they can throw at things, while Lotus is still a very small company by comparison.

I'm hoping to establish communication with Matt to see what can be done, and to get some clarification on some of the issues people are struggling with right now. I can't make any promises; I don't know if he'll even respond, but I'm giving it a go, and we'll see what happens.

 

[Guest142]

They have a PR team, marketing team, comms team, customer care team etc. As I've said elsewhere, what we're seeing on comms approach by Lotus is their deliberately chosen strategy not lack of expertise or bandwidth.

I would say it's working. Brilliantly.

 

[p.rob]

Most of us mentioned the fact that a Lotus is not common and is more exclusive than many other brands as an advantage over competition. Well exclusivity also come with a price, units are not produced in big quantity (that's the principal right). So everybody loves exclusivity, but nobody wants to be left out. There is some kind on contradiction here if you ask me.

If you wan't an exlusive product that is in huge demand, you better be on your A game because others will be. I placed my order at my dealership 1h after the official announcement in july, I was 4th on the list. Next day came, there was already 20 people on the list, 2 days after announcement that number was up to 40. So even 2 days after the announcement, you were already late to the FE party and, to me, that was 100% predictable, that's why I picked up the phone as soon possible.

And to people moaning about dealership network in US, we have 5 here in Canada. Everything east of Montreal is covered by the Montreal dealership. Look it up, that means some people have to drive 14h to get the the nearest lotus dealer

 

[Eagle7]

I don't think most if anybody had any idea the demand would be what it's turned out to be; I know I didn't. I saw the Goodwood coverage on July 11, and after watching the videos, picked up the phone and called Park Place in Bellevue, Washington. I was genuinely surprised to find out there were already 45 deposits. I placed my deposit at #46. The dealer told me they are the 2nd biggest Lotus dealership in the country, and they usually get 70 cars a year, so he was confident I'd get a car, but also commented on the volume of interest they were getting.

Almost 7 months later, it turns out they're only getting 45 cars. Dealers that normally get 1 or 2 were getting 5 or 6 now because they too had a backlog, which doesn't sound like much, but spread out over 40 dealers that siphoned off enough cars to seriously short the normally high volume dealers. That's not a dealer issue, that's a production volume issue.

The single biggest issue at play here, is the fact that Lotus has received far more deposits than they ever dreamed they would, and weren't ready to handle it. I have no doubt they'd love to be able to crank out 10,000 cars right now, but they aren't there yet. They're going to be able to do that, and are making progress, but they're not there yet. This first production run isn't enough to meet the demand, and that's just the way it is. They had already planned for a "launch spec" as Russell called it, but that was before they knew what the reaction was going to be. It's what we know as the First Edition. They thought they were going to need it as an incentive to encourage people to be interested in the car. Turns out they didn't need it at all, but they didn't know that at the time.

They need more production, and they need more dealers, and they know it. If they can go from a studio model and a running proof-of-concept car, to sellable production in only 7 months, that's a pretty good indication of how capable they are. The next 7 months should make a significant difference overall. That may not sound great for right now, but look at how fast the last 7 months seems to have gone by. Before we know it, we'll be reading press reviews, and watching videos from the excited owners receiving their cars in the U.K., and we'll be configuring from base models with more color options. Depending on what you want for options, it may be equal to or less than an FE, so you may be able to get exactly what you wanted for less than an FE. New options may become available that FE buyers didn't get, like the TDC stripe on the steering wheel, colored stitching in the interior, different seat belt colors, etc. The only downside is having to wait longer to get your car than if you were in the FE group that are getting theirs this year. We just have to be patient.

If Lotus got this kind of response from enthusiasts who follow things like the Goodwood Festival, imagine what's going to happen when the general public sees these, and finds out what the price of the i4 is. If you weren't in the deposit group that's getting an FE, and you still want a car, either keep your FE deposit in for a base car, or get your deposit in now, because once the reviews hit the streets it's going to be a stampede.

 

[NicolasB]

I don't think most if anybody had any idea the demand would be what it's turned out to be; I know I didn't. I saw the Goodwood coverage on July 11, and after watching the videos, picked up the phone and called Park Place in Bellevue, Washington. I was genuinely surprised to find out there were already 45 deposits. I placed my deposit at #46. The dealer told me they are the 2nd biggest Lotus dealership in the country, and they usually get 70 cars a year, so he was confident I'd get a car, but also commented on the volume of interest they were getting.

Almost 7 months later, it turns out they're only getting 45 cars. Dealers that normally get 1 or 2 were getting 5 or 6 now because they too had a backlog, which doesn't sound like much, but spread out over 40 dealers that siphoned off enough cars to seriously short the normally high volume dealers. That's not a dealer issue, that's a production volume issue.

The single biggest issue at play here, is the fact that Lotus has received far more deposits than they ever dreamed they would, and weren't ready to handle it. I have no doubt they'd love to be able to crank out 10,000 cars right now, but they aren't there yet. They're going to be able to do that, and are making progress, but they're not there yet. This first production run isn't enough to meet the demand, and that's just the way it is. They had already planned for a "launch spec" as Russell called it, but that was before they knew what the reaction was going to be. It's what we know as the First Edition. They thought they were going to need it as an incentive to encourage people to be interested in the car. Turns out they didn't need it at all, but they didn't know that at the time.

They need more production, and they need more dealers, and they know it. If they can go from a studio model and a running proof-of-concept car, to sellable production in only 7 months, that's a pretty good indication of how capable they are. The next 7 months should make a significant difference overall. That may not sound great for right now, but look at how fast the last 7 months seems to have gone by. Before we know it, we'll be reading press reviews, and watching vidoes from the excited owners receiving their cars in the U.K., and we'll be configuring from base models with more color options. Depending on what you want for options, it may be equal to or less than an FE, so you may be able to get exactly what you wanted for less than an FE. New options may become available that FE buyers didn't get, like the TDC stripe on the steering wheel, colored stitching in the interior, different seat belt colors, etc. The only downside is having to wait longer to get your car than if you were in the FE group that are getting theirs this year. We just have to be patient.

If Lotus got this kind of response from enthusiasts who follow things like the Goodwood Festival, imagine what's going to happen when the general public sees these, and finds out what the price of the i4 is. If you weren't in the deposit group that's getting an FE, and you still want a car, either keep your FE deposit in for a base car, or get your deposit in now, because once the reviews hit the streets it's going to be a stampede.

#46 when getting 45 cars sucks! Someone will inevitably drop-out though, and you should be good. I'm like #15 and dealer is only getting 8 or 9.

 

[Eagle7]

#46 when getting 45 cars sucks! Someone will inevitably drop-out though, and you should be good. I'm like #15 and dealer is only getting 8 or 9.

Yeah that's what my salesman told me, he told me to be ready as they're expecting some drop-outs.

 

[Porter]

Before we know it, we'll be reading press reviews, and watching videos from the excited owners receiving their cars in the U.K., and we'll be configuring from base models with more color options. Depending on what you want for options, it may be equal to or less than an FE, so you may be able to get exactly what you wanted for less than an FE. New options may become available that FE buyers didn't get, like the TDC stripe on the steering wheel, colored stitching in the interior, different seat belt colors, etc. The only downside is having to wait longer to get your car than if you were in the FE group that are getting theirs this year. We just have to be patient.

The situation seems pretty clear so far. Lotus are not building enough cars to cover the existing V6 FE deposits, particularly in the US. They've said that after they ship 700 cars, that's the end of the road for the First Edition, and as of today they have no other announced model with details or pricing or anything. Everybody else after that 700 is going to get some other kind of future Emira, in a package that's different from what they deposited against and possibly with different pricing.

Our friends in the UK who have posted in response to these issues don't seem to be familiar with the US-specific "offer price" legalities tied to model year designations. In the US each model year is legally a unique product from top to bottom, and there's a big regulatory wall between model years. The change of model year is when companies can legally change the MSRP of a product, and based on the currently communicated US-bound production timing there might not ever be a MY23 base model Emira (V6 or I4) sold in the US at all, it could become a MY24 model which would legally require a new published MSRP.

So everything after the first 700 FE sales blows the pricing expectations apart for US buyers, and it's an unknown potential quagmire of perverse incentives and dealership games. That's the reason for the irritation. Lotus could easily soothe those worries by stating openly whether existing pricing is going to be honored for those with existing deposits, but they've chosen radio silence instead. I don't get it.

Hell, I'm probably still getting an FE because I was early, but I'm irritated on principle because there should be open transparency about these issues when a small manufacturer is trying to grow a meaningful community of owners who act as brand ambassadors everywhere they go. Lotus doesn't have a big enough dealer network in the US to have any real visibility through that network to the public, so the owner community represents the brand instead. What all these new owners feel about how they're treated is genuinely important for the future of the company and could make or break them.

Look at what word-of-mouth narratives about quality did to Alfa during what should have been a triumphant return to the US for that brand. If that kind of thing takes off about the Lotus buying experience, it will torpedo a lot of the goodwill that they desperately need in order to credibly market the Type 132 and other future products here. They're starting from way behind with the US general public, so they need to make the early adopter enthusiasts into walking evangelists if they want to convert a hundred thousand Joe Normals to becoming buyers.

 

[jmn444]

I don't think anyone knew the price or specs of a first edition that actually put a deposit down early enough to get one... and anyone after that was only expecting 500 for north america... so seems like the odds of getting one was fairly clear up front IMO. The base model has been announced for quite some time, so not exactly sure what else they could do other than pricing and that will be available prior to anyone getting an allocation to order.

 

[Eagle7]

The situation seems pretty clear so far. Lotus are not building enough cars to cover the existing V6 FE deposits, particularly in the US. They've said that after they ship 700 cars, that's the end of the road for the First Edition, and as of today they have no other announced model with details or pricing or anything. Everybody else after that 700 is going to get some other kind of future Emira, in a package that's different from what they deposited against and possibly with different pricing.

Our friends in the UK who have posted in response to these issues don't seem to be familiar with the US-specific "offer price" legalities tied to model year designations. In the US each model year is legally a unique product from top to bottom, and there's a big regulatory wall between model years. The change of model year is when companies can legally change the MSRP of a product, and based on the currently communicated US-bound production timing there might not ever be a MY23 base model Emira (V6 or I4) sold in the US at all, it could become a MY24 model which would legally require a new published MSRP.

So everything after the first 700 FE sales blows the pricing expectations apart for US buyers, and it's an unknown potential quagmire of perverse incentives and dealership games. That's the reason for the irritation. Lotus could easily soothe those worries by stating openly whether existing pricing is going to be honored for those with existing deposits, but they've chosen radio silence instead. I don't get it.

Hell, I'm probably still getting an FE because I was early, but I'm irritated on principle because there should be open transparency about these issues when a small manufacturer is trying to grow a meaningful community of owners who act as brand ambassadors everywhere they go. Lotus doesn't have a big enough dealer network in the US to have any real visibility through that network to the public, so the owner community represents the brand instead. What all these new owners feel about how they're treated is genuinely important for the future of the company and could make or break them.

Look at what word-of-mouth narratives about quality did to Alfa during what should have been a triumphant return to the US for that brand. If that kind of thing takes off about the Lotus buying experience, it will torpedo a lot of the goodwill that they desperately need in order to credibly market the Type 132 and other future products here. They're starting from way behind with the US general public, so they need to make the early adopter enthusiasts into walking evangelists if they want to convert a hundred thousand Joe Normals to becoming buyers.

All good points, which I'll summarize in addition to others I've received, and add it to my own.

 

[Porter]

I don't think anyone knew the price or specs of a first edition that actually put a deposit down early enough to get one... and anyone after that was only expecting 500 for north america... so seems like the odds of getting one was fairly clear up front IMO. The base model has been announced for quite some time, so not exactly sure what else they could do other than pricing and that will be available prior to anyone getting an allocation to order.

They stated the approximate pricing structure at the Goodwood launch. When official pricing was released, it roughly matched and validated the expectation that was previously given. This wasn't a shot in the dark. And Lotus should be commended for doing essentially what they said they would do.

Look, I'm not trying to be unreasonable. It would just be nice for US depositors to get some kind of indication from Lotus UK that they have an intention to do right by them going forward. Lotus needs to recognize that there is a significant information and power imbalance between US dealers and consumers, leading to a weirdly adversarial sales process "norm" for what should be a relatively simple and transparent asset purchase transaction. Lotus can help matters significantly by doing better direct comms. Empower the customer with information.

 

[jmn444]

They stated the approximate pricing structure at the Goodwood launch. When official pricing was released, it roughly matched and validated the expectation that was previously given. This wasn't a shot in the dark. And Lotus should be commended for doing essentially what they said they would do.

Look, I'm not trying to be unreasonable. It would just be nice for US depositors to get some kind of indication from Lotus UK that they have an intention to do right by them going forward. Lotus needs to recognize that there is a significant information and power imbalance between US dealers and consumers, leading to a weirdly adversarial sales process "norm" for what should be a relatively simple and transparent asset purchase transaction. Lotus can help matters significantly by doing better direct comms. Empower the customer with information.

I thought it was just base pricing back then, but I don't remember. I seem to remember fe pricing in sept for uk and later for usa... and remember a whole lot of posts about how crazy expensive it was vs the announced 60k pound base price... I guess I just don't get it really, they will announce pricing and people can decide if they value it that highly or not. Lotus has motivation to price competitively as they want sales and want to be in business, but prices on everything have risen so I'm not sure they should/could be expected to hold pricing thru multiple years. I don't think any manufacturer would do that, it's a recipe for going out of business. guess we will see soon enough!

 

[VL3X]

If Lotus got this kind of response from enthusiasts who follow things like the Goodwood Festival, imagine what's going to happen when the general public sees these, and finds out what the price of the i4 is.

This is a good point. We are enthusiasts who've been obsessing over this car for 7+ months... The general public and even non-lotus specific car enthusiasts might not even know about the Emira yet. If the journalists review it highly, Lotus will absolutely have a home run.

I think the AMG I4 will be a huge hit if they keep the price down in that $75-80k range. I just hope it takes off and more dealerships open up because that's my only big concern.

 

[Balboa]

hmm i don't have to up my deposit according to my salesmen i asked 3 times already guess it must be a california thing

Which dealership in California?

 

[LotusB]

Our friends in the UK who have posted in response to these issues don't seem to be familiar with the US-specific "offer price" legalities tied to model year designations. In the US each model year is legally a unique product from top to bottom, and there's a big regulatory wall between model years. The change of model year is when companies can legally change the MSRP of a product, and based on the currently communicated US-bound production timing there might not ever be a MY23 base model Emira (V6 or I4) sold in the US at all, it could become a MY24 model which would legally require a new published MSRP.

I'm also not familiar with this. Are you just describing how things have been or should be? Tesla doesn't follow the model you described. Also, MSRP is "suggested." Prior to the pandemic, how many of us walked into the dealer expecting to pay MSRP? Nowadays we all hope for MSRP

So everything after the first 700 FE sales blows the pricing expectations apart for US buyers, and it's an unknown potential quagmire of perverse incentives and dealership games. That's the reason for the irritation. Lotus could easily soothe those worries by stating openly whether existing pricing is going to be honored for those with existing deposits, but they've chosen radio silence instead. I don't get it.

We don't even know the pricing for Base Edition yet and to be fair nobody knew the pricing of the First Edition when we placed the deposit. There's nothing to say. If you're getting the V6 FE your price starts at $94k. The base I4 (whenever that is) will start at $75k. Anything outside of that has not been announced.

I hope for Lotus' sake and that of existing depositors, dealers don't gouge customers. Especially those who've been on the list. Anything beyond that is decided by the market, unfortunately.

Look at what word-of-mouth narratives about quality did to Alfa during what should have been a triumphant return to the US for that brand. If that kind of thing takes off about the Lotus buying experience, it will torpedo a lot of the goodwill that they desperately need in order to credibly market the Type 132 and other future products here. They're starting from way behind with the US general public, so they need to make the early adopter enthusiasts into walking evangelists if they want to convert a hundred thousand Joe Normals to becoming buyers.

What didn't help Alfa was reliability! All the electrical glitches with preproduction media cars and then owner complaints about the same. I remember all full well because my friend wanted to buy a Quadrifoglio at the time and was too concerned about short-term reliability, let alone long-term.