U.S. Update: Allocation & Order Date

[Lotustoronto]

I don't think he did. As everyone on the forum was so rabid for any information, it got picked up and went viral throughout the community immediately. That's the way things work on the internet nowadays.

The guys in Australia got it sent to them from Lotus direct. I asked this same question already and guys in EU got it as well. Over here I am not sure.

 

[dgrace]

There are many forums members that placed non-refundable deposits at US dealers

In all honesty - 100% certain that when placing a deposit you are a customer LEGALLY... whether you personal don't see it that way, fine, I understand how you would not. But legally, depositors for anything fall under consumer protection laws.

My dealer has accepted deposits out to 2024, at least. There’s no way Windle was guaranteeing pricing out that far. Every model year for every manufacturer has a price adjustment.

 

[Lotustoronto]

My dealer has accepted deposits out to 2024, at least. There’s no way Windle was guaranteeing pricing out that far. Every model year for every manufacturer has a price adjustment.

No of course not. I personally thought it was only for the first model year. Some people think it's for depositors up until the date the video went out.

It would only make sense that it is the first model year run since all the prices of Base and F/E has been advertised on the configurator. On the flip side to that. When the video went live, I believe the wait list was 60/70 weeks at the time, which would have been up to the Oct/Nov of 2023 anyway. So I guess they would both be right. Obviously more delays than expected since then.

 

[Lotustoronto]

I don't think he did. As everyone on the forum was so rabid for any information, it got picked up and went viral throughout the community immediately. That's the way things work on the internet nowadays.

It is posted on Lotus Cars YouTube page. Which is world wide. If it was meant only for UK F/E depositors, they would not have posted that message on YouTube.

 

[Eagle7]

There are many forums members that placed non-refundable deposits at US dealers

In all honesty - 100% certain that when placing a deposit you are a customer LEGALLY... whether you personal don't see it that way, fine, I understand how you would not. But legally, depositors for anything fall under consumer protection laws.

Who? To my knowledge, none of the deposits were non-refundable. They only became non-refundable when the deposit turned into an order.

Unless you sign a contract to buy, you're not legally a customer yet. There's no binding agreement. Consumer protection laws can cover you if there was deception, mis-representation, or failure to comply with the terms of a contract, but just placing a deposit is not the same as a signed purchase agreement. It's a good indicator that you might become a customer, so any salesman worth anything will treat you as though you intend to buy, but the deal isn't closed until there's a down payment (if required) and a signed agreement to buy.

 

[Lotustoronto]

Who? To my knowledge, none of the deposits were non-refundable. They only became non-refundable when the deposit turned into an order.

Unless you sign a contract to buy, you're not legally a customer yet. There's no binding agreement. Consumer protection laws can cover you if there was deception, mis-representation, or failure to comply with the terms of a contract, but just placing a deposit is not the same as a signed purchase agreement. It's a good indicator that you might become a customer, so any salesman worth anything will treat you as though you intend to buy, but the deal isn't closed until there's a down payment (if required) and a signed agreement to buy.

Ok, this is the last time I am going to bring this up, and yes there a first depositors in the US that made non-refundable deposits. Search the forum, @ksegg I believe is one of them.

Eagle7 - you are giving your opinion of what a customer is to you, and that is fine. However, legally when someone places a deposit for goods or services, you are entering into an agreement with that customer. Sometimes a deposit is refundable, sometimes it is not, even at auto dealerships. This depends on the agreed terms to said deposit. You can not make an incorrect blanket statement that depositors are not legally customers, as that is completely false. Depositers are considered consumers and most certainly are protected under consumer law. This is not debatable from a legal standpoint. It is fact.

The second you place a deposit for anything you become a customer - the deposit acts as an agreement to purchase. Not the same as your Bill of sale or Final Purchase contract.

Let me ask you this question -Assume you place a 10K deposit for a Porsche GT3 at the dealer, 6 months later they never call you for an allocation, so you go back to get it refunded. They then refuse to give you back your deposit. What do you do? Let me guess... Take them to court and fight for its return. Guess what laws protect you in that situation since the dealership broke its end of the refundable deposit agreement? CONSUMER PROTECTION LAWS, because you're a customer. FML

 

[Lotustoronto]

For me If you go to Lotus Cars YouTube channel it is not listed. It's not public... it's hosted their, but hidden unless you have the link.

Yes, I noticed that... Look, I don't live in Europe or Australia. They said they got it. I am just relaying what is said.

 

[DPB]

When Matt made that video only he and God knew what he meant by the term “customer”. Now, only God knows.

 

[vdr]

That's not correct. In the video Matt said "the price you've been quoted will be the price you'll pay". He didn't say anything about particular models or model years or about it only applying to people with firm orders.

I’m curious as to whether my deposit, made rather early in the process, qualifies as a “firm order” even though I purportedly missed an FE allocation. I would think not and when the allocations open up for the base model I’m intently watching to see if the pricing is maintained

“Then they should not have sent the video to all depositors, including base and i4 F/E world wide. They had a list of the allocated customers and would have been a lot smarter to send the video to the people it was intended for. No other CEO of a major corporation would make that mistake.

I also do not know for certain who he considers "customers" either. I guess we will find out.

To my knowledge they didn’t send this video to all depositors. I placed a deposit in July of ‘21 and wouldn’t have even known about the existence of that video if I didn’t frequent this forum. Neither Lotus, Lotus USA nor my dealer sent me the Matt video….

Frankly I wasn’t even advised that I didn’t make the cut for an FE and if I didn’t reach out to my dealer months after allocations were announced I still wouldn’t have a clue. To date I’ve received no further word on any demo cars being available for a test drive nor BE allocations tentatively being released.

Be it as a result of current events, apathy on behalf of the manufacturer, dealers or, perhaps, both…. this has become quite the half-assed carnival.

 

[EspritGuy]

I will have to disagree... If I give you my money, I'm your customer. No question in my mind.

The deposit confirmation note from Lotus would seem to support that: You are in the fast lane now.

 

[Eagle7]

Ok, this is the last time I am going to bring this up, and yes there a first depositors in the US that made non-refundable deposits. Search the forum, @ksegg I believe is one of them.

Eagle7 - you are giving your opinion of what a customer is to you, and that is fine. However, legally when someone places a deposit for goods or services, you are entering into an agreement with that customer. Sometimes a deposit is refundable, sometimes it is not, even at auto dealerships. This depends on the agreed terms to said deposit. You can not make an incorrect blanket statement that depositors are not legally customers, as that is completely false. Depositers are considered consumers and most certainly are protected under consumer law. This is not debatable from a legal standpoint. It is fact.

The second you place a deposit for anything you become a customer - the deposit acts as an agreement to purchase. Not the same as your Bill of sale or Final Purchase contract.

Let me ask you this question -Assume you place a 10K deposit for a Porsche GT3 at the dealer, 6 months later they never call you for an allocation, so you go back to get it refunded. They then refuse to give you back your deposit. What do you do? Let me guess... Take them to court and fight for its return. Guess what laws protect you in that situation since the dealership broke its end of the refundable deposit agreement? CONSUMER PROTECTION LAWS, because you're a customer. FML

I had my own graphics design business. I always considered everyone a potential customer. If someone wanted me to do a job for them, and gave me 50% to cover materials, with the balance due on delivery, they were a buying customer. If someone simply wanted to see some ideas, they weren't a buying customer until they committed to an order. If they gave me $100 to work up some ideas, but decided not to go with any of them, they were a potential customer, but still not a buying customer. If I tried to take them to court and claim that because they gave me money for ideas, they now have to buy from me because I considered them a customer, that wouldn't fly.

To answer your question, if a dealership breaks their end of an agreement to refund a refundable deposit, that's a contract issue and would be covered by contract law. Consumer protection laws were put into place because of shady business practices; unethical, mis-leading, bait-and-switch, etc.

Putting money down for goods or services always includes terms to cover when and how the balance is due. That also includes a promise to deliver from whomever you contracted with. The contract terms would cover the details of that so it depends on the contract.

You putting down a deposit for a product that is in development and doesn't exist yet, doesn't bind the company or you to a final sales contract, until there's a final, legally sellable product which has been disclosed to you along with price and terms, and you've agreed to buy it under those terms and signed a purchase agreement to such. At that point, that agreement constitutes an order and starts the build process at the factory. Until you have reached that point, you're a potential customer but not a BUYING customer yet. There is a difference with regards to commitments and obligations. If you ask me to do a job for you, and I spend the money to produce that product for you, that's a binding agreement. If you didn't sign anything asking me to do that, and I went ahead and spent the money to produce it because I decided you were a customer, you're not obligated to buy it. There has to be a signed agreement that states what's being sold and what the terms are.

There's no point in continuing this. You have your understanding of what the law says with regards to commitments and obligations, and I have mine based on years of doing business in a service/production industry. Anybody who indicates interest in a product or service is a potential customer. If they put money down on something, the obligations depend on what it is, what's involved, and what the terms are to the deposit.

 

[mjw930]

Did they? Maybe they did in the UK, but I don't think they did worldwide. I know they didn't for the USA.

Exactly, I am a reservation holder in the US, I never received that email.

Regarding the rest of the noise being thrown around here it’s really quite simple, in North America (Location matters), you are either a reservation holder or have a confirmed order. Only 700 people have a confirmed order and can be considered a “customer” of your dealer. You don’t become a “customer” of Lotus until the car is delivered and registered in your name.

And yes, there some dealers playing fast and loose with the term “order” and claiming your deposit is non-refundable. They ARE NOT following Lotus’ process which is to collect and register a refundable reservation deposit so lotus has a reliable record of true demand.

It only becomes an “order” when a dealer production allocation is matched to a reservation holder, configured and placed with Lotus Cars NA at which point it becomes non-refundable, subject to local laws. At this point some dealers are requiring additional deposits which is stupid IMHO but no one here actually knows what their dealer agreements look like.

 

[EspritGuy]

I had my own graphics design business. I always considered everyone a potential customer. If someone wanted me to do a job for them, and gave me 50% to cover materials, with the balance due on delivery, they were a buying customer. If someone simply wanted to see some ideas, they weren't a buying customer until they committed to an order. If they gave me $100 to work up some ideas, but decided not to go with any of them, they were a potential customer, but still not a buying customer. If I tried to take them to court and claim that because they gave me money for ideas, they now have to buy from me because I considered them a customer, that wouldn't fly.

To answer your question, if a dealership breaks their end of an agreement to refund a refundable deposit, that's a contract issue and would be covered by contract law. Consumer protection laws were put into place because of shady business practices; unethical, mis-leading, bait-and-switch, etc.

Putting money down for goods or services always includes terms to cover when and how the balance is due. That also includes a promise to deliver from whomever you contracted with. The contract terms would cover the details of that so it depends on the contract.

You putting down a deposit for a product that is in development and doesn't exist yet, doesn't bind the company or you to a final sales contract, until there's a final, legally sellable product which has been disclosed to you along with price and terms, and you've agreed to buy it under those terms and signed a purchase agreement to such. At that point, that agreement constitutes an order and starts the build process at the factory. Until you have reached that point, you're a potential customer but not a BUYING customer yet. There is a difference with regards to commitments and obligations. If you ask me to do a job for you, and I spend the money to produce that product for you, that's a binding agreement. If you didn't sign anything asking me to do that, and I went ahead and spent the money to produce it because I decided you were a customer, you're not obligated to buy it. There has to be a signed agreement that states what's being sold and what the terms are.

There's no point in continuing this. You have your understanding of what the law says with regards to commitments and obligations, and I have mine based on years of doing business in a service/production industry. Anybody who indicates interest in a product or service is a potential customer. If they put money down on something, the obligations depend on what it is, what's involved, and what the terms are to the deposit.

This is a vital discussion with many viewpoints that can only be addressed/resolved by Lotus. The matter is far more clear for FE orders within the first 700 grants.. I believe we will have pricing news by December 1st.
What was once an exciting process has become exhausting (to me). A morsel here and there and not the meal.

 

[Lotustoronto]

My deposit is indeed non-refundable. I am locked in whether I want to be or not.

Thank-you ksegg.... BTW according to some people here you are not a customer.

 

[mjw930]

Thank-you ksegg.... BTW according to some people here you are not a customer.

He is a customer of the dealer, not Lotus. Lotus never required a non refundable deposit. If he looks at his contract the 2 parties are him and his dealer, not Lotus Cars US or Lotus UK.

 

[mjw930]

I feel so valued.

So it my Lotus dealer says "sorry can't get you an Emira", I can't do anything about it because I am bound by a legal contract that explicitly states "$2,500 deposit, non-refundable"?

How is that not theft. It's completely unethical.

And you signed that? I interviewed 5 dealers before I placed my reservation with Naples, only one of the five, Jacksonville, claimed theirs was non refundable, they also wanted $5000.

It is also in direct conflict with Lotus’ requirement that the “reservation” is fully refundable until it’s converted to an actual order and given a production number.

And yes, it’s entirely unethical and I will never do business with a dealership that plays those games.

 

[Eagle7]

Thank-you ksegg.... BTW according to some people here you are not a customer.

You're now playing games with terminology. I've been differentiating between a prospective customer for sales purposes, and a buying customer, but either way they're a customer. There's just a difference in commitments and obligations depending on what type of arrangement it is.

 

[Eagle7]

I feel so valued.

So it my Lotus dealer says "sorry can't get you an Emira", I can't do anything about it because I am bound by a legal contract that explicitly states "$2,500 deposit, non-refundable"?

How is that not theft. It's completely unethical.

They have to provide some kind of value for your money. I think you would definitely have a case in court. Just because you signed a contract, doesn't automatically mean it's necessarily legal or binding. Contract disputes happen all the time. Who's your dealer? You might try looking up on the internet and see if there are any pending lawsuits against them, and what they're for. You may be able to join an existing lawsuit if there are others in the same situation you're in. This is what consumer protection laws were created for.

 

[Lotustoronto]

You're now playing games with terminology. I've been differentiating between a prospective customer for sales purposes, and a buying customer, but either way they're a customer. There's just a difference in commitments and obligations depending what type of arrangement it is.

I don't disagree that the contractural obligations from making a deposit to become a reservation holder to a confirmed allocation / build slot has different implications. Both are customers from a legal standpoint is my only point. Either a customer from Lotus HQ if your in the UK and placed it directly with them, or your local dealer in the US and become a customer of that dealership.

 

[Eagle7]

This is a vital discussion with many viewpoints that can only be addressed/resolved by Lotus. The matter is far more clear for FE orders within the first 700 grants.. I believe we will have pricing news by December 1st.
What was once an exciting process has become exhausting (to me). A morsel here and there and not the meal.

Yeah I totally hear ya. If there were simply production delays for cars that they'd already been producing, that would be one thing, but we've been on the journey of going from concept to validation to production. And we've all had to go through this during some of the most difficult times the world has experienced since World War 2. It has been and is exhausting, for everyone including Lotus. I can't imagine the heartburn of trying to do what they've been trying to do under these circumstances.

The good news is the car looks like it's going to be worth the wait, and once we have our cars, we'll all have war stories to tell about what it took to get one.