I'm out - the cancellations thread

[kitkat]

I’m not actually sure of new policy changes in China will result in less delays or more delays. I’m hoping for less. Trying to be optimistic in the new year

 

[TomE]

Even if it's directly the cause of the lockdowns that are affecting manufacturing? But whatever.

COVID as a reason for the lockdowns wasn’t the point being debated. The handling of COVID was what was being discussed and was off topic.

 

[TomE]

I kind of get it if the thread goes totally off topic for ages - which this didn't - MANY other threads went way off topic and weren't deleted. But it seems like censorship in this case.

Discussions about the handling of COVID often stray into politics. Hence these get nipped in the bud quickly.

Applying the forum rules is part of moderating forum content. We’re fairly relaxed on here (as your observation about off topic posts references) but we are strict on applying the rules about acceptable content.

 

[Dommo]

Discussions about the handling of COVID often stray into politics. Hence these get nipped in the bud quickly.

Applying the forum rules is part of moderating forum content. We’re fairly relaxed on here (as your observation about off topic posts references) but we are strict on applying the rules about acceptable content.

I’m sorry Tom but the nature of discussion means that things occasionally go off topic. Understandably, if they start to ruin a thread by going too deep ‘off topic’ for too long then maybe they should be deleted, but 3 posts about Covid don’t deserve an ‘off topic’ deletion IMO

 

[Cachaco131]

COVID as a reason for the lockdowns wasn’t the point being debated. The handling of COVID was what was being discussed and was off topic.

My bad!

 

[TomE]

I’m sorry Tom but the nature of discussion means that things occasionally go off topic. Understandably, if they start to ruin a thread by going too deep ‘off topic’ for too long then maybe they should be deleted, but 3 posts about Covid don’t deserve an ‘off topic’ deletion IMO

We have had several instances in the past where these types of posts head into political arguments. Hence why they get stopped early.

Brexit changes have also had an impact on Emira deliveries. We can discuss what those impacts are and why they have happened. But this isn’t the place to debate the rights and wrongs of Brexit or the handling of impacts in areas beyond Emira production.

There are of course grey areas and we try to maintain balance. One post at a tangent isn’t too much of a problem, but multiple posts heading further off topic lead to intervention.

If you want to debate how we approach moderation then please start a new topic and tag me and the moderators/admins in. We’re happy to discuss it. For purposes of this thread, the matter is closed and let’s get back on topic.

 

[Dommo]

We have had several instances in the past where these types of posts head into political arguments. Hence why they get stopped early.

Brexit changes have also had an impact on Emira deliveries. We can discuss what those impacts are and why they have happened. But this isn’t the place to debate the rights and wrongs of Brexit or the handling of impacts in areas beyond Emira production.

There are of course grey areas and we try to maintain balance. One post at a tangent isn’t too much of a problem, but multiple posts heading further off topic lead to intervenion.

If you want to debate how we approach moderation then please start a new topic and tag me and the moderators/admins in. We’re happy to discuss it. For purposes of this thread, the matter is closed and let’s get back on topic.

I understand your reasons, even if I disagree to a point. But like you say, lets end it here because we're technically off topic and you'll have to delete these posts too

 

[Nova]

I’m not actually sure of new policy changes in China will result in less delays or more delays. I’m hoping for less. Trying to be optimistic in the new year

The new policy is causing a near term surge in illnesses. Most of our suppliers are down to a skeleton crew and many have opted for an early departure for Chinese new years. We were originally planning for shipments all the way to mid January but all those plans have been cancelled. We will see how it all shakes out by mid February, which is when we expect the country to thaw out of the normal Chinese New Years holiday period. So I figure the net effect is that the covid wave caused about a month of lost production and shipping output.

The worst thing that can happen for manufacturing is China swinging to a strict policy of lockdown again. If that happens, the delays will worsen.

 

[kitkat]

The new policy is causing a near term surge in illnesses. Most of our suppliers are down to a skeleton crew and many have opted for an early departure for Chinese new years. We were originally planning for shipments all the way to mid January but all those plans have been cancelled. We will see how it all shakes out by mid February, which is when we expect the country to thaw out of the normal Chinese New Years holiday period. So I figure the net effect is that the covid wave caused about a month of lost production and shipping output.

The worst thing that can happen for manufacturing is China swinging to a strict policy of lockdown again. If that happens, the delays will worsen.

I think that's what I'm afraid of for the Emira.

 

[Eagle7]

COVID as a reason for the lockdowns wasn’t the point being debated. The handling of COVID was what was being discussed and was off topic.

Well considering it's the choice of using severe lockdowns that's causing the disruption in supply, which is causing the delay in Lotus being able to build and ship Emiras, I thought it was definitely on topic. It's the delays that are primarily causing people to cancel their Emira deposits/orders, and this is the "cancellations" thread..

Back in 2021 when we were putting down our deposits, we all thought we'd be driving our Emiras by the end of 2022. Instead, very very few have their cars. Even you don't have yours yet, and that's directly the fault of the lockdowns disrupting the supply chain. It's something Lotus has no control over, so I personally don't feel it's fair to blame Lotus, but it's having an effect on some people even being able to purchase one now. The finance interest rates are now much worse than they were a year ago. The disruption of the supply chain globally has also caused a downturn of the stock market, which has had an impact on some people's finances who were counting on pulling from their portofolio to pay for the car.

I don't see how this would be considered off topic for a thread about cancellations, as it's a cause and effect issue, but you're the moderator here, not me.

 

[NicolasB]

I’m not actually sure of new policy changes in China will result in less delays or more delays. I’m hoping for less. Trying to be optimistic in the new year

Congrats on your first day at the gym

 

[kitkat]

Congrats on your first day at the gym

Give it a couple weeks

 

[TomE]

Well considering it's the choice of using severe lockdowns that's causing the disruption in supply, which is causing the delay in Lotus being able to build and ship Emiras, I thought it was definitely on topic. It's the delays that are primarily causing people to cancel their Emira deposits/orders, and this is the "cancellations" thread..

Back in 2021 when we were putting down our deposits, we all thought we'd be driving our Emiras by the end of 2022. Instead, very very few have their cars. Even you don't have yours yet, and that's directly the fault of the lockdowns disrupting the supply chain. It's something Lotus has no control over, so I personally don't feel it's fair to blame Lotus, but it's having an effect on some people even being able to purchase one now. The finance interest rates are now much worse than they were a year ago. The disruption of the supply chain globally has also caused a downturn of the stock market, which has had an impact on some people's finances who were counting on pulling from their portofolio to pay for the car.

I don't see how this would be considered off topic for a thread about cancellations, as it's a cause and effect issue, but you're the moderator here, not me.

There is a difference between discussing the approach to managing COVID lockdowns (= political) versus discussing the impacts of lockdowns on supply chains and Emira production (= on topic). Whilst there are possible grey areas here, the overall principle is clear.

Your deleted post started "What the Chinese government is doing is making the situation far worse than it would be otherwise" and then continued to comment on the approach to managing lockdowns. There was one point about the possible impact on global manufacturing. Steer clear of the political comments and you're fine.

 

[Pops68]

I don't know about that - In the UK, yes I can see it being a little more saturated.... in the US market, I do not think they will/can build enough Emira's to satisfy the US market, without sacrificing other ROW. They just don't have enough production. They can only build 5X less per year than Porsche 718's production - which is probably the exact right amount to not flood the market with used Emira's.

Just to add to this - Porsche in 2018 (pre-covid) delivered 6,100 718's into US/CAN. That is Hethel's full annual max production run. (if they can hit it)

and this from motor authority ; " In 2021, Porsche delivered 20,502 718s, and in the first quarter of 2022 a total of 4,536 718s have been delivered, keeping production roughly on pace with last year."

I really don't think Lotus will be able to keep up with demand worldwide - especially considering the 718 ICE models are on the chopping block for 2025 and that their most popular models the 4RS and upcoming Spyder RS are double the price of an Emira if you can attain an allocation. (GT4 and Spyder slated to end production for 2023 model year)

End of an Era is upon us and people wanting the last of the greatest new sports cars are on a limited time schedule. I can only see demand increasing for the Emira come 2024/2025. At the same time, production slowing to introduce the all electric version. Timing of the Emira was on Lotus' side, such a shame the production woes is taking this long to sort out. I have no doubt that the final V6 edition - probably introduced in 2024 as a 2025 car will be very limited, sold out quickly and be the final hurray for a manual Lotus. My guess is a 50-80 KG weight reduction (maybe 100KG!) with titanium exhaust, carbon bits and carbon seats and 430 BHP engine upgrade. Track suspension etc. They will earmark beating a 718 GT4 ring time with it. (manual v manual) If they can do all that, with a sub 125K USD price tag they will have the proper send off for a Lotus ICE. Not unthinkable.

Most people still have never heard of Lotus or the Emira. 2023 IMO is the make or break year for Lotus. If they cock it up people will no longer believe in them. You can see the sentiment all over the forum. Geely knows this. IMO they will pull out all the stops to prevent this billion dollar investment to fail.

I'm wondering that as people discover how unrealistic the frantic push to "green" is, that companies such as Ford will continue to manufacture ICE vehicles along with some electric. And look at Porsche's investment in alternate fuels. My guess is we will still have a selection of fun ICE cars. Finding a manual though....could be more difficult..

 

[Lotustoronto]

I'm wondering that as people discover how unrealistic the frantic push to "green" is, that companies such as Ford will continue to manufacture ICE vehicles along with some electric. And look at Porsche's investment in alternate fuels. My guess is we will still have a selection of fun ICE cars. Finding a manual though....could be more difficult..

I agree that ICE will be around longer than we think... however, I don't know about in sports cars. Sports cars are always pushing the envelope when it comes to speed and track times and while the current battery technology does not do a good job for longevity it is no question faster. Porsche will keep the 911 ICE as long as they can, but the mid engine 718's will be their electric sports car range.

So I do think ICE cars will be considered nostalgic, especially manual cars. It is a dying breed there is no question about that.

How many mid-engine manual sports cars exist under 100K? 718's and Emira? Soon to be only Emira.

 

[VL3X]

How many mid-engine manual sports cars exist under 100K? 718's and Emira? Soon to be only Emira.

Yup, that's it here in North America! One of my main attractions to the Emira. Instant classic and rare!

 

[Eagle7]

Yup, that's it here in North America! One of my main attractions to the Emira. Instant classic and rare!

When did you become a mod!? Congrats man!

 

[TomE]

Today! Welcome to the team @VL3X

Official announcement coming “soon”!

 

[Pops68]

I agree that ICE will be around longer than we think... however, I don't know about in sports cars. Sports cars are always pushing the envelope when it comes to speed and track times and while the current battery technology does not do a good job for longevity it is no question faster. Porsche will keep the 911 ICE as long as they can, but the mid engine 718's will be their electric sports car range.

So I do think ICE cars will be considered nostalgic, especially manual cars. It is a dying breed there is no question about that.

How many mid-engine manual sports cars exist under 100K? 718's and Emira? Soon to be only Emira.

Time will tell, I think those good ol' gas powered, manual transmission sports cars will be around at least for the remainder of my driving years. The youngsters will never get to understand that complete experience of sound, smell, feel and overall connection of being one with the car. They will be setting lap records in $100k golf carts....boring..

 

[VL3X]

They will be setting lap records in $100k golf carts....boring..

Well I doubt it'll be boring if they're out there setting records, but I get what you're saying.

I'm very excited to soon own one of the last ICE mid engine sportscars ever. And the fact that it'll have 3 pedals and built by a former F1 winning company makes it all that more special!