More details for KEF Audio

[Fasttoys]

Quick question, for the audiophiles and people with experience modifying car sound systems. Could an easy fix be just installing extra tweeters in the a-pillars? It wouldn't revolutionise the sound system it would improve it surely? (an option I am considering)

The problem would be the Amp and integrating another driver without causing issues. When you add drivers to existing system then you have Amp issues as it was designed to send power based off the original driver configuration, any adjustment means the other drivers get less power or other issues. The sub IMO is more the issue and I agree with the Audio team in the video, once you start pushing the system vibrations are introduced in the cabin. The speaker grills on my Evora had to be reengineered by me or at 45% volume the grills would fly off. Any time you mess with the original OEM configuration IMO its always best to scrap it and start fresh or in the end you will always have to compromise.

We all know Lotus is supposed to be about reduction in weight and sound proofing adds weight. Even though the Emira is not super lightweight compared to past Lotuses but lighter compared to most production cars. Sometimes it makes me laugh when we go to deep about weight savings, in the end a few less cheeseburgers for most of us would help and it’s healthier than complaining about adding heavier speaker drivers. In the end it’s what’s most important for that individual owner of the Emira as this will dictate what will be done with their cars.

The Lotus Eletre KEF system is top notch, IMO the issue with the Emira it only uses 3 KEF drivers, the others I am pretty sure are not from KEF or very low quality. I am thinking the KEF drivers are in the upper Doors & one in the dash, while the two in the rear and the sub are from another manufacturer Or the lowest versions from KEF, I could be wrong but read Lotus description below.

Look below from the Lotus site.
From Lotus:The KEF Premium Audio System features a 10 channel audio system which includes three KEF Uni-Q speakers and a fresh air subwoofer.

My suspicion If you look at the other OEM drivers in the video, you can tell just by looks & cone material the two rear L&R and the sub all look very basic in comparison to the KEF mid drivers cone construction. If they are KEF they are bottom tier for sure. The sub is using a basic paper cone driver the L&R rears are using poly cone drivers and the dash and the doors are using the higher end KEF driver material. This Definitely needs more investigation.

 

[PsymonR]

The Lotus Eletre KEF system is top notch, IMO the issue with the Emira it only uses 3 KEF drivers, the others I am pretty sure are not from KEF or very low quality. I am thinking the KEF drivers are in the upper Doors & one in the dash, while the two in the rear and the sub are from another manufacturer Or the lowest versions from KEF, I could be wrong but read Lotus description below.

In the video they don't seem to mention anything about there being a KEF driver in the dash (someone correct me if I missed it), I wonder if this was because they didn't realise there was anything there or whether they thought it would detract from their 'no tweeter high up' argument so omitted it.

(I don't know enough about the physics of sound wave propagation to know what impact pointing up from the dash will have on the sound waves getting from the speaker to the listener)

Look below from the Lotus site.
From Lotus:The KEF Premium Audio System features a 10 channel audio system which includes three KEF Uni-Q speakers and a fresh air subwoofer.

I noticed that they were filming the 'before' audio with the car door open. With people saying in this thread that opening the window ruins the sound stage due to the fresh air subwoofer, that definitely will not have been painting the system in the best light... as Nova says, not the most honest of comparisons.

Now I'm not saying the system doesn't have its problems, from what people are saying there are obviously things that they could have done better. Whether it is good enough for my needs, time will tell once I eventually get my car, though what my wife thinks will be the tougher test for the system!

 

[Nova]

The problem would be the Amp and integrating another driver without causing issues. When you add drivers to existing system then you have Amp issues as it was designed to send power based off the original driver configuration, any adjustment means the other drivers get less power or other issues. The sub IMO is more the issue and I agree with the Audio team in the video, once you start pushing the system vibrations are introduced in the cabin. The speaker grills on my Evora had to be reengineered by me or at 45% volume the grills would fly off. Any time you mess with the original OEM configuration IMO its always best to scrap it and start fresh or in the end you will always have to compromise.

We all know Lotus is supposed to be about reduction in weight and sound proofing adds weight. Even though the Emira is not super lightweight compared to past Lotuses but lighter compared to most production cars. Sometimes it makes me laugh when we go to deep about weight savings, in the end a few less cheeseburgers for most of us would help and it’s healthier than complaining about adding heavier speaker drivers. In the end it’s what’s most important for that individual owner of the Emira as this will dictate what will be done with their cars.

The Lotus Eletre KEF system is top notch, IMO the issue with the Emira it only uses 3 KEF drivers, the others I am pretty sure are not from KEF or very low quality. I am thinking the KEF drivers are in the upper Doors & one in the dash, while the two in the rear and the sub are from another manufacturer Or the lowest versions from KEF, I could be wrong but read Lotus description below.

Look below from the Lotus site.
From Lotus:The KEF Premium Audio System features a 10 channel audio system which includes three KEF Uni-Q speakers and a fresh air subwoofer.

My suspicion If you look at the other OEM drivers in the video, you can tell just by looks & cone material the two rear L&R and the sub all look very basic in comparison to the KEF mid drivers cone construction. If they are KEF they are bottom tier for sure. The sub is using a basic paper cone driver the L&R rears are using poly cone drivers and the dash and the doors are using the higher end KEF driver material. This Definitely needs more investigation.


View attachment 37006View attachment 37007View attachment 37008View attachment 37009

Frankly, except for the subwoofer, all the other drivers look fine. Event that subwoofer looks okay construction wise on the cone and surround, it's just not enough cone area and excursion (judging by the small voice coil) to generate a satisfying amount of low distortion bass. There is nothing about the materials and construction of the other speaker's that are questionable based on visual examination.

They really needed a good 8 inch or mediocre 10 inch subwoofer driver.

 

[Porter]

The problem would be the Amp and integrating another driver without causing issues. When you add drivers to existing system then you have Amp issues as it was designed to send power based off the original driver configuration, any adjustment means the other drivers get less power or other issues. The sub IMO is more the issue and I agree with the Audio team in the video, once you start pushing the system vibrations are introduced in the cabin. The speaker grills on my Evora had to be reengineered by me or at 45% volume the grills would fly off. Any time you mess with the original OEM configuration IMO its always best to scrap it and start fresh or in the end you will always have to compromise.

We all know Lotus is supposed to be about reduction in weight and sound proofing adds weight. Even though the Emira is not super lightweight compared to past Lotuses but lighter compared to most production cars. Sometimes it makes me laugh when we go to deep about weight savings, in the end a few less cheeseburgers for most of us would help and it’s healthier than complaining about adding heavier speaker drivers. In the end it’s what’s most important for that individual owner of the Emira as this will dictate what will be done with their cars.

The Lotus Eletre KEF system is top notch, IMO the issue with the Emira it only uses 3 KEF drivers, the others I am pretty sure are not from KEF or very low quality. I am thinking the KEF drivers are in the upper Doors & one in the dash, while the two in the rear and the sub are from another manufacturer Or the lowest versions from KEF, I could be wrong but read Lotus description below.

Look below from the Lotus site.
From Lotus:The KEF Premium Audio System features a 10 channel audio system which includes three KEF Uni-Q speakers and a fresh air subwoofer.

My suspicion If you look at the other OEM drivers in the video, you can tell just by looks & cone material the two rear L&R and the sub all look very basic in comparison to the KEF mid drivers cone construction. If they are KEF they are bottom tier for sure. The sub is using a basic paper cone driver the L&R rears are using poly cone drivers and the dash and the doors are using the higher end KEF driver material. This Definitely needs more investigation.


View attachment 37006View attachment 37007View attachment 37008View attachment 37009

I wouldn't make assumptions about the quality of the driver based on the appearance alone. A driver that meets specified performance characteristics, well, it meets those performance characteristics. It's the integration of the driver with crossover, amplification and signal that produces a result. You can get ultra high-end results in a room with extremely inexpensive drivers if it's integrated correctly. The same is true in a car.

 

[Porter]

They really needed a good 8 inch or mediocre 10 inch subwoofer driver.

I have an old JL Audio 8W0 in a tiny sealed wedge box that I might put on the rear shelf or behind the passenger seat, and bypass the "fresh air" unit entirely. I'm not even sure it would need a booster amp, it depends on how much real wattage the factory amp puts out.

 

[Nova]

I have an old JL Audio 8W0 in a tiny sealed wedge box that I might put on the rear shelf or behind the passenger seat, and bypass the "fresh air" unit entirely. I'm not even sure it would need a booster amp, it depends on how much real wattage the factory amp puts out.

The OEM sub is a DVC sub design, based on 4 wires going into the sub enclosure. Ideally, you would want a DVC sub to take advantage of this.

However, there is likely a high pass filter on the sub to reduce low bass output to prevent over excursion given the free air design. This would make a sealed sub sound too lean.

So… not only would you need a booster amp, you would need to offset that high pass filter somewhat with a bit of EQing.

Edit: it might be easier for someone to build a new tub that fits a shallow DVC free air 10 inch sub at the factory location. Looks like there is plenty of space.

 

[Porter]

The OEM sub is a DVC sub design, based on 4 wires going into the sub enclosure. Ideally, you would want a DVC sub to take advantage of this.

However, there is likely a high pass filter on the sub to reduce low bass output to prevent over excursion given the free air design. This would make a sealed sub sound too lean.

So… not only would you need a booster amp, you would need to offset that high pass filter somewhat with a bit of EQing.

Edit: it might be easier for someone to build a new tub that fits a shallow DVC free air 10 inch sub at the factory location. Looks like there is plenty of space.

If that's the case, it's probably using two channels of amplification for the sub, possibly with one phase reversed. If we can get into the Harman amp config, those can probably be matched and bridged.

Hell, if it's DVC but with common phase, it may be possible to simply bridge the channel as it is. Many DVC setups like this are 8 ohm per coil, which would make a single voice coil sub at 4 ohm a good substitute. Has anyone taken photos of the back of the existing subdriver? It may be printed on the basket or on a sticker.

I can probably use some software to figure out the electrical outputs and see if they are in phase or out of phase. If it's fully reversed then you could just swap the phase of one channel and direct bridge it to match peaks. If it's quarter phase DSP sort of situation that gets way more complicated. Would require a little electrical analysis.

 

[Fasttoys]

I wouldn't make assumptions about the quality of the driver based on the appearance alone. A driver that meets specified performance characteristics, well, it meets those performance characteristics. It's the integration of the driver with crossover, amplification and signal that produces a result. You can get ultra high-end results in a room with extremely inexpensive drivers if it's integrated correctly. The same is true in a car.

I am basing it off listening to about 4 plus hours in 5 different Emira's. The last one was a sellable unit owned by the dealer. I went back last week. In that car, it's about 1 1/2 hours listening.

 

[Porter]

I am basing it off listening to about 4 plus hours in 5 different Emira's. The last one was a sellable unit owned by the dealer. I went back last week. In that car, it's about 1 1/2 hours listening.

Did you put the fader all the way forward to eliminate them? Curious if that improved your experience.

 

[Nova]

I am basing it off listening to about 4 plus hours in 5 different Emira's. The last one was a sellable unit owned by the dealer. I went back last week. In that car, it's about 1 1/2 hours listening.

The reason these discussions are getting detailed so frequently is people are conflating objective discussions of the technical aspects of the OEM system with their own subjective listening experience.

No one is challenging what you heard.

What I and others are saying is that specific technical details of the OEM drivers do not preclude a good sounding system. For example, the OEM rear midbass having a poly cone: the Audisson top-range Thesis midbass drivers also use a poly cone. The mid-priced Voce midbass used in this aftermarket install has a pressed paper cone.

Both paper and poly cones are tried and true cone materials. Some of the more exotic materials like aluminum and woven fiber *can* give great results but needs a lot of engineering to avoid some of the pitfalls related to come breakup modes due to these materials being inherently not well damped mechanically. The KEF uni-q driver has an aluminum midrange cone, if I remember correctly.

Again, we can't just look at the appearance of these speakers and say they suck. Except for the sub.

 

[Fasttoys]

Did you put the fader all the way forward to eliminate them? Curious if that improved your experience.

Yes even played around with tones, and fader & different music sources on the iPhone apps I use. The SUB will be an issue for many, but expected outcome based on how it is built, location & the small driver. Some of the base coming from the rear is from the L&R mid-range drivers. Listening to the system is fine for some but do not expect it to be similar to the Lotus SUV HIFI system or other high-end systems in other brands. The good news aftermarket will have many upgrade options which wasn’t available for the Evora when I owned mine in 2011 through 2013. Some will be fine with it while others will want more HIFI sound.

 

[Pugwash]

Does the Emira have a front / back fader? I thought it only had a side to side balance control.

 

[lynchy73]

Does the Emira have a front / back fader? I thought it only had a side to side balance control.

No it doesn’t, it’s only left/right fader.

 

[Nova]

No it doesn’t, it’s only left/right fader.

That makes sense. Because the rear speakers are not fill, but midbass in a 4-way system.

 

[Speedluvver]

The fact that they missed the centre speaker completely makes me 'walk away' no matter what - its just an advert....

 

[Fasttoys]

The fact that they missed the centre speaker completely makes me 'walk away' no matter what - its just an advert....

Center speaker is irrelevant for their set up. To remove it watch their video on the Ferrari system they installed, they removed the entire dash. Even if they don’t have to remove the windshield or dash to get to the driver it’s not important for their set up. In the KEF system i think the center speaker is used for voice fill in, i could be wrong but that is my theory based on the door mid driver tweeter placement. .

 

[Nova]

Most center channels in car audio systems are used to pull the soundstage to the center, to offset the effect of listeners being closer to one side than the other. It does this by masquerading as reflected sound: it's a summed mono signal at a lower level and slightly delayed in time, usually usually aligned with the first reflection from the windshield (2ms-ish). It's generally very difficult to get well centered soundstage for both front occupants in a car without a center channel, but this depends on the car and the speaker mounting location used - further away is better.

In the Emira it would also help stabilize the soundstage height when the listener's head moves around. Speakers within a +/- 30 degree height difference from the ear don't normally cause significant soundstage height perception changes, but the listener could pickup cues of the soundstage height shifting if they tilt their to look up.

 

[Speedluvver]

Center speaker is irrelevant for their set up. To remove it watch their video on the Ferrari system they installed, they removed the entire dash. Even if they don’t have to remove the windshield or dash to get to the driver it’s not important for their set up. In the KEF system i think the center speaker is used for voice fill in, i could be wrong but that is my theory based on the door mid driver tweeter placement. .

Respectfully disagree - it doesn't matter what its used for - they didn't even mention it - they rubbished the KEF system - and the 'small tweeters' in the door - the centre speaker is there for a reason as others have said to provide sound stage - if they weren't just filming an advert, they would have at least mentioned it

 

[Time2Fly]

And that is my point with the center channel. They didn't even mention it's existence. Not too remove it, to explain how it works in their system, nada.

They unplug it and leave it there?

 

[Nova]

It is a lot more work to get into the dash. Maybe they would do it on a more expensive system. I would be surprised if Audison doesn't provide a solution for center channel processing. It's just so common these days.