USA/Canada Delivery Thread

[Porter]

Dealers can't confirm anything because they don't know anything for sure yet. North American Emira builds are scheduled to start in September. Then they sit outside while the rest get built and eventually a batch is shipped over to Baltimore and possibly some other ports. After arriving at the port, they'll apparently be stored indoors (at least in Baltimore, according to my dealer) and wait for certification. Once the cert process is completed, the cars will be released and dispersed to the dealers. Then the dealer will accept the cars and perform PDI and schedule delivery to customers.

Will the certification process go smoothly and quickly? Will this all happen by the end of the year? We don't know yet. I personally doubt it, but we'll see.. Either way, I expect the majority of first deliveries to be completed by Spring 2024 at the latest. I have local friends with orders in and who'd rather wait for a spring delivery anyway (I was saying the same last year about my own potential 2023 Emira delivery). Things should be smooth sailing by summer 2024 with deliveries rolling in frequently and i4 production moving along.

Lotus would be absolute fools to build a single car before they achieve regulatory certification. You're talking about a 60 million dollar gamble.

 

[benjh1028]

FYI, I was contacted by lotus of Dallas to put my order in for a fe2.0 v6. So it seems the allocations are happening!

Get the Xanax ready as this might send JSUNLAND into a tizzy.

 

[KAR120C]

Lotus would be absolute fools to build a single car before they achieve regulatory certification. You're talking about a 60 million dollar gamble.

It wouldn't be the first time they did it. The Evora 400 was built, shipped and some arrived at dealers before certification. They could not be sold until they were certified, then the stickers were sent to the dealers and applied on site! It's a gamble but cars could be sold instantly after certification instead of waiting months.

 

[kitkat]

Lotus would be absolute fools to build a single car before they achieve regulatory certification. You're talking about a 60 million dollar gamble.

Many manufacturers do this because they know they can retrofit either software or parts in port.

 

[Dabjbr]

These are most likely the cars they need to give all those test drives at the Quail during Monterey car week - they arrived in port a little while ago.

I have a test drive Wednesday, August 16th.

Where is this happening? I missed the cut on the first test drive. The demo broke down before my scheduled second test drive. I’m now just impatiently waiting for a third attempt.

 

[kitkat]

Where is this happening? I missed the cut on the first test drive. The demo broke down before my scheduled second test drive. I’m now just impatiently waiting for a third attempt.

I posted about it a while back, this is happening at the Quail lodge during monterey car week.

It's completely booked out but I'm sure there will be no-shows I suggest you get on the waitlist. https://lotusdrives.com/

 

[Callabrator]

FYI, I was contacted by lotus of Dallas to put my order in for a fe2.0 v6. So it seems the allocations are happening!

Interesting. What date did you put down your deposit?

 

[EspritGuy]

FYI, I was contacted by lotus of Dallas to put my order in for a fe2.0 v6. So it seems the allocations are happening!

Congratulations, that must have been a stellar message.

 

[Sjetware]

Interesting. What date did you put down your deposit?

7/14/21

 

[Dabjbr]

I posted about it a while back, this is happening at the Quail lodge during monterey car week.

It's completely booked out but I'm sure there will be no-shows I suggest you get on the waitlist. https://lotusdrives.com/

I totally missed your prior post. Unfortunately, since missing out on two test drives, my interest has waned.

That said, I just added my name to the wait list. Don't know if I really want to drive 7 round trip for a 15 minute drive though! I really hope Boardwalk gets more in and fairly soon. Can't believe I've had a deposit in for nearly 2 years and still haven't sat in or driven one!

 

[Porter]

It wouldn't be the first time they did it. The Evora 400 was built, shipped and some arrived at dealers before certification. They could not be sold until they were certified, then the stickers were sent to the dealers and applied on site! It's a gamble but cars could be sold instantly after certification instead of waiting months.

Many manufacturers do this because they know they can retrofit either software or parts in port.

Right but in that case they had clear and straightforward compliance with the regulatory regime for emissions, and they were building a product well within the limits at that time. Now, things are different. Under EPA Tier 3 regs, the more relaxed NMOG+NOX standard for Small Volume Manufacturers (0.125 g/mi) expired after MY2021.

SVMs now have to meet a maximum allowable fleet average of 0.051 g/mile for NMOG+NOX for model years 2022-2027, and as recently as late 2020 the MY2021 Evora GT was only achieving a test result of 0.0729 g/mi according to the public records of their EPA submissions. Lotus themselves actually notated their EPA submissions for the MY2021 Evora GT, saying explicitly "As an SVM, Lotus will meet Tier 3 requirements in MY22". But they didn't sell a MY22 Lotus Evora in the US.

I hope Lotus were able to miraculously get the same "MLTXV03.5JHB (2GR-3.5S)" engine down by the necessary 30% reduction to hit the 0.051 g/mi target for MY22-MY27, because if not they'll have experienced an uphill battle trying to get EPA to grant them any sort of waiver. This is also somewhat complicated by their 51% ownership by Geely, who also own Volvo and therefore there's some math that has to be done on whether they have enough of a relationship to affect EPA SVM status.


Now, in my own mind, all this raises contextual questions. Is this fleet average problem possibly one of the reasons the Emira V6 has been delayed so long for the US? Is the long stack of delays since early 2022 maybe not about all the things they've claimed, but possibly instead a strategic choice, waiting for the Emira I4 AMG and Eletre to simultaneously certify for US compliance under the same Model Year for EPA, so that they're considered as a batch and Lotus get a better fleet average?

 

[KCMO68_510]

Now, in my own mind, all this raises contextual questions. Is this fleet average problem possibly one of the reasons the Emira V6 has been delayed so long for the US? Is the long stack of delays since early 2022 maybe not about all the things they've claimed, but possibly instead a strategic choice, waiting for the Emira I4 AMG and Eletre to simultaneously certify for US compliance under the same Model Year for EPA, so that they're considered as a batch and Lotus get a better fleet average?

Interesting thought...

 

[NicolasB]

Right but in that case they had clear and straightforward compliance with the regulatory regime for emissions, and they were building a product well within the limits at that time. Now, things are different. Under EPA Tier 3 regs, the more relaxed NMOG+NOX standard for Small Volume Manufacturers (0.125 g/mi) expired after MY2021.

SVMs now have to meet a maximum allowable fleet average of 0.051 g/mile for NMOG+NOX for model years 2022-2027, and as recently as late 2020 the MY2021 Evora GT was only achieving a test result of 0.0729 g/mi according to the public records of their EPA submissions. Lotus themselves actually notated their EPA submissions for the MY2021 Evora GT, saying explicitly "As an SVM, Lotus will meet Tier 3 requirements in MY22". But they didn't sell a MY22 Lotus Evora in the US.

I hope Lotus were able to miraculously get the same "MLTXV03.5JHB (2GR-3.5S)" engine down by the necessary 30% reduction to hit the 0.051 g/mi target for MY22-MY27, because if not they'll have experienced an uphill battle trying to get EPA to grant them any sort of waiver. This is also somewhat complicated by their 51% ownership by Geely, who also own Volvo and therefore there's some math that has to be done on whether they have enough of a relationship to affect EPA SVM status.


Now, in my own mind, all this raises contextual questions. Is this fleet average problem possibly one of the reasons the Emira V6 has been delayed so long for the US? Is the long stack of delays since early 2022 maybe not about all the things they've claimed, but possibly instead a strategic choice, waiting for the Emira I4 AMG and Eletre to simultaneously certify for US compliance under the same Model Year for EPA, so that they're considered as a batch and Lotus get a better fleet average?

How else do you think Chevy gets the new Z06 approved or Ford get the GT500 without all of these issues?

 

[KAR120C]

Right but in that case they had clear and straightforward compliance with the regulatory regime for emissions, and they were building a product well within the limits at that time. Now, things are different. Under EPA Tier 3 regs, the more relaxed NMOG+NOX standard for Small Volume Manufacturers (0.125 g/mi) expired after MY2021.

SVMs now have to meet a maximum allowable fleet average of 0.051 g/mile for NMOG+NOX for model years 2022-2027, and as recently as late 2020 the MY2021 Evora GT was only achieving a test result of 0.0729 g/mi according to the public records of their EPA submissions. Lotus themselves actually notated their EPA submissions for the MY2021 Evora GT, saying explicitly "As an SVM, Lotus will meet Tier 3 requirements in MY22". But they didn't sell a MY22 Lotus Evora in the US.

I hope Lotus were able to miraculously get the same "MLTXV03.5JHB (2GR-3.5S)" engine down by the necessary 30% reduction to hit the 0.051 g/mi target for MY22-MY27, because if not they'll have experienced an uphill battle trying to get EPA to grant them any sort of waiver. This is also somewhat complicated by their 51% ownership by Geely, who also own Volvo and therefore there's some math that has to be done on whether they have enough of a relationship to affect EPA SVM status.


Now, in my own mind, all this raises contextual questions. Is this fleet average problem possibly one of the reasons the Emira V6 has been delayed so long for the US? Is the long stack of delays since early 2022 maybe not about all the things they've claimed, but possibly instead a strategic choice, waiting for the Emira I4 AMG and Eletre to simultaneously certify for US compliance under the same Model Year for EPA, so that they're considered as a batch and Lotus get a better fleet average?

Definitely a point to ponder! So a question for you, since you're in the know....if the fleet average doesn't hit the required target, is that a 'no-approval' situation, or a monetary fine, or a limited approval until they can meet the average?

 

[Eagle7]

Right but in that case they had clear and straightforward compliance with the regulatory regime for emissions, and they were building a product well within the limits at that time. Now, things are different. Under EPA Tier 3 regs, the more relaxed NMOG+NOX standard for Small Volume Manufacturers (0.125 g/mi) expired after MY2021.

SVMs now have to meet a maximum allowable fleet average of 0.051 g/mile for NMOG+NOX for model years 2022-2027, and as recently as late 2020 the MY2021 Evora GT was only achieving a test result of 0.0729 g/mi according to the public records of their EPA submissions. Lotus themselves actually notated their EPA submissions for the MY2021 Evora GT, saying explicitly "As an SVM, Lotus will meet Tier 3 requirements in MY22". But they didn't sell a MY22 Lotus Evora in the US.

I hope Lotus were able to miraculously get the same "MLTXV03.5JHB (2GR-3.5S)" engine down by the necessary 30% reduction to hit the 0.051 g/mi target for MY22-MY27, because if not they'll have experienced an uphill battle trying to get EPA to grant them any sort of waiver. This is also somewhat complicated by their 51% ownership by Geely, who also own Volvo and therefore there's some math that has to be done on whether they have enough of a relationship to affect EPA SVM status.


Now, in my own mind, all this raises contextual questions. Is this fleet average problem possibly one of the reasons the Emira V6 has been delayed so long for the US? Is the long stack of delays since early 2022 maybe not about all the things they've claimed, but possibly instead a strategic choice, waiting for the Emira I4 AMG and Eletre to simultaneously certify for US compliance under the same Model Year for EPA, so that they're considered as a batch and Lotus get a better fleet average?

Interesting. CARB certification is primarily emissions. Supposed the Emira complies, they're just waiting in the queue to receive the approval for certification. However if what you're saying about fleet emissions is a factor, that would be an interesting ploy.

The problem with the delays though is the schedule for the Type 135, which is supposed take over the production hall the Emira is using. I know Lotus has applied to greatly expand the facility at Hethel, but even if they get approval, that's still not going to happen over night. Then they have to staff up for the new expansion, and get them up to speed. Now add to that the fact they're running out of time (unless things change regulations-wise) to be able to produce the Emira, and they have a 3 year order book for the FE. They probably don't even know yet how many orders for the base model there will be once the configurator goes live.

Basically, right now the Emira is 'in the way' of their electric plans for the Type 135 and whatever the 4 door sports saloon is going to be. Except the Emira is the best selling model they've ever had, so what do you do with that? If the fully loaded FE is backed up 3 years, what's the base model going to be like since it's likely to be the only Emira under $100k?

Interesting times indeed.

 

[JimH]

Interesting. CARB certification is primarily emissions. Supposed the Emira complies, they're just waiting in the queue to receive the approval for certification. However if what you're saying about fleet emissions is a factor, that would be an interesting ploy.

The problem with the delays though is the schedule for the Type 135, which is supposed take over the production hall the Emira is using. I know Lotus has applied to greatly expand the facility at Hethel, but even if they get approval, that's still not going to happen over night. Then they have to staff up for the new expansion, and get them up to speed. Now add to that the fact they're running out of time (unless things change regulations-wise) to be able to produce the Emira, and they have a 3 year order book for the FE. They probably don't even know yet how many orders for the base model there will be once the configurator goes live.

Basically, right now the Emira is 'in the way' of their electric plans for the Type 135 and whatever the 4 door sports saloon is going to be. Except the Emira is the best selling model they've ever had, so what do you do with that? If the fully loaded FE is backed up 3 years, what's the base model going to be like since it's likely to be the only Emira under $100k?

Interesting times indeed.

Type 133 (electric saloon/sedan) and Type 134 (smaller electric SUV) will be Wuhan built and both launch before Type 135 (Hethel built electric sports car). I doubt we’ll see Type 135 before 2026/7.

Lotus planning application has now been submitted for the new factory for the Type 135 at Hethel, along with associated logistics and office building - highly unlikely not to be approved by the local authority here and should be ready for Type 135 production when planned - all documents are published and make for an interesting read! https://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/23683375.lotus-planning-expansion-hethel-site-south-norfolk/

2023/2037 | Hybrid Application: 1) Outline planning application (including access and scale) for the development of modern facilities to support Lotus' production requirements. Proposals include new manufacturing (B2), production (B2

info.southnorfolkandbroadland.gov.uk

 

[Eagle7]

Lotus are now planning a new factory for the Type 135 at Hethel, along with associated logistics and office buildings…. https://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/23683375.lotus-planning-expansion-hethel-site-south-norfolk/

Okay that makes sense, and it shows a sensible commitment to the Emira which is selling well. It may very well be that the U.K. might allow low volume manufacturers to continue to build ICE cars below a certain production number, which I believe Gordon Murray was talking about in a video.

 

[Porter]

Definitely a point to ponder! So a question for you, since you're in the know....if the fleet average doesn't hit the required target, is that a 'no-approval' situation, or a monetary fine, or a limited approval until they can meet the average?

You can't get regulatory approval on a car if the company's sales as a whole won't meet the fleet average standard, they have to meaningfully comply with the regs (and have an expectation of continued compliance) before anything is approved for sale. Then they have a regulatory filing at the end of each model year that attests to the compliance of the company overall with the fleet average standard, showing the math. If there's a situation where the math doesn't turn out to work as expected at the end of a sale period (based on production numbers, balance of different products sold, market shifts, etc) then they are given an opportunity to explain themselves and correct it.

There's some significant risk to winging it and hoping for the best on this topic, because the penalties for knowingly misrepresenting the expected state of multi-year compliance can be severe, including a per-vehicle-sold penalty that can be significant. That's how VW got nailed with such a huge fine over Dieselgate. I'm actually surprised they weren't banned from sale as a punitive measure. I think it's only because they are such a huge market player that they weren't. A company like Lotus would likely not get that kind of special treatment.

Here's the actual text of the law governing corporate fleet averaging for Tier 3 emissions. It's a bit of a word puzzle, but once you noodle through how the different paragraphs affect each other it's relatively straightforward.

40 CFR § 86.1860-17 - How to comply with the Tier 3 and Tier 4 fleet average standards.

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[morphious]

@Eagle7 Because you mentioned it in a previous reply, Geely is in China :

 

[EspritGuy]

You can't get regulatory approval on a car if the company's sales as a whole won't meet the fleet average standard, they have to meaningfully comply with the regs (and have an expectation of continued compliance) before anything is approved for sale. Then they have a regulatory filing at the end of each model year that attests to the compliance of the company overall with the fleet average standard, showing the math. If there's a situation where the math doesn't turn out to work as expected at the end of a sale period (based on production numbers, balance of different products sold, market shifts, etc) then they are given an opportunity to explain themselves and correct it.

There's some significant risk to winging it and hoping for the best on this topic, because the penalties for knowingly misrepresenting the expected state of multi-year compliance can be severe, including a per-vehicle-sold penalty that can be significant. That's how VW got nailed with such a huge fine over Dieselgate. I'm actually surprised they weren't banned from sale as a punitive measure. I think it's only because they are such a huge market player that they weren't. A company like Lotus would likely not get that kind of special treatment.

Here's the actual text of the law governing corporate fleet averaging for Tier 3 emissions. It's a bit of a word puzzle, but once you noodle through how the different paragraphs affect each other it's relatively straightforward.

40 CFR § 86.1860-17 - How to comply with the Tier 3 and Tier 4 fleet average standards.

www.law.cornell.edu

Glad someone understands this. It put a glaze on my eyes and locked up many neurons. Otherwise simply electrifying..