USA/Canada Delivery Thread

[Porter]

That engine in Evora trim has already gone through certification in the US, there should be no reason that a slightly detuned version will not. Whereas, there are currently no US emission certification on any version of the AMG I4.

I've gone over this previously in this thread, but it's worth revisiting. The EPA's Tier 3 requirements have ratcheted more and more strict for corporate average emissions for NMOG+NOx each year since 2016, culminating in a final (extremely low) requirement for the 2025 Model Year.

Lotus qualifies as a Small Volume Manufacturer (SVM) which means they enjoy a "relaxed" spec for the NMOG+NOx limit at 51 mg/mi, but that''s still a very low figure. And it's one that the last iteration of the Evora (Evora GT, which was last sold in MY 2021) does not meet, it was tested for EPA compliance in Oct 2020 and returned a result over 70 mg/mi. To be specific, the NMOG+NOx tested at 72.9 mg/mi on the federal "average" fuel, and 82.2 mg/mi on the California formulation at 50degF. Those numbers were legal/OK in MY 2021 when the limit for SVMs was still 125 mg/mi, but they are no longer acceptable, the spec changed for SVMs to 51 mg/mi starting in MY22.

So either the Emira has to reduce measured tailpipe emissions by 30% compared to the Evora (which is unlikely), or they have to come up with another way to get the "fleet" average under the target. Which is why I suspect they have delayed the V6 for the US, so they can mix the AMG and V6 production numbers in the same model year to get a better fleet average.

 

[benjh1028]

I've gone over this previously in this thread, but it's worth revisiting. The EPA's Tier 3 requirements have ratcheted more and more strict for corporate average emissions for NMOG+NOx each year since 2016, culminating in a final (extremely low) requirement for the 2025 Model Year.

Lotus qualifies as a Small Volume Manufacturer (SVM) which means they enjoy a "relaxed" spec for the NMOG+NOx limit at 51 mg/mi, but that''s still a very low figure. And it's one that the last iteration of the Evora (Evora GT, which was last sold in MY 2021) does not meet, it was tested for EPA compliance in Oct 2020 and returned a result over 70 mg/mi. To be specific, the NMOG+NOx tested at 72.9 mg/mi on the federal "average" fuel, and 82.2 mg/mi on the California formulation at 50degF. Those numbers were legal/OK in MY 2021 when the limit for SVMs was still 125 mg/mi, but they are no longer acceptable, the spec changed for SVMs to 51 mg/mi starting in MY22.

So either the Emira has to reduce measured tailpipe emissions by 30% compared to the Evora (which is unlikely), or they have to come up with another way to get the "fleet" average under the target. Which is why I suspect they have delayed the V6 for the US, so they can mix the AMG and V6 production numbers in the same model year to get a better fleet average.

Makes sense.

 

[Wiz33]

I've gone over this previously in this thread, but it's worth revisiting. The EPA's Tier 3 requirements have ratcheted more and more strict for corporate average emissions for NMOG+NOx each year since 2016, culminating in a final (extremely low) requirement for the 2025 Model Year.

Lotus qualifies as a Small Volume Manufacturer (SVM) which means they enjoy a "relaxed" spec for the NMOG+NOx limit at 51 mg/mi, but that''s still a very low figure. And it's one that the last iteration of the Evora (Evora GT, which was last sold in MY 2021) does not meet, it was tested for EPA compliance in Oct 2020 and returned a result over 70 mg/mi. To be specific, the NMOG+NOx tested at 72.9 mg/mi on the federal "average" fuel, and 82.2 mg/mi on the California formulation at 50degF. Those numbers were legal/OK in MY 2021 when the limit for SVMs was still 125 mg/mi, but they are no longer acceptable, the spec changed for SVMs to 51 mg/mi starting in MY22.

So either the Emira has to reduce measured tailpipe emissions by 30% compared to the Evora (which is unlikely), or they have to come up with another way to get the "fleet" average under the target. Which is why I suspect they have delayed the V6 for the US, so they can mix th

Thanks for the info, learn something new. Does anyone knows how are the emission standard for the US compared to Euro 6d?

 

[HydroJim]

I've gone over this previously in this thread, but it's worth revisiting. The EPA's Tier 3 requirements have ratcheted more and more strict for corporate average emissions for NMOG+NOx each year since 2016, culminating in a final (extremely low) requirement for the 2025 Model Year.

Lotus qualifies as a Small Volume Manufacturer (SVM) which means they enjoy a "relaxed" spec for the NMOG+NOx limit at 51 mg/mi, but that''s still a very low figure. And it's one that the last iteration of the Evora (Evora GT, which was last sold in MY 2021) does not meet, it was tested for EPA compliance in Oct 2020 and returned a result over 70 mg/mi. To be specific, the NMOG+NOx tested at 72.9 mg/mi on the federal "average" fuel, and 82.2 mg/mi on the California formulation at 50degF. Those numbers were legal/OK in MY 2021 when the limit for SVMs was still 125 mg/mi, but they are no longer acceptable, the spec changed for SVMs to 51 mg/mi starting in MY22.

So either the Emira has to reduce measured tailpipe emissions by 30% compared to the Evora (which is unlikely), or they have to come up with another way to get the "fleet" average under the target. Which is why I suspect they have delayed the V6 for the US, so they can mix the AMG and V6 production numbers in the same model year to get a better fleet average.

If I've interpreted the Tier 3 standards correctly, it looks like they have to be at 30 mg/mi starting in MY 2028. That seems impossible, but maybe they have some tricks up their sleeves. For 2025-2027, I wonder how much the I4 will help. It seems it's based on sales numbers so is it somehow calculated after the fact?

I'm not sure how the Geely parent company thing may factor into all this. I didn't read anything in the standard about electric vehicles.

 

[HydroJim]

Thanks for the info, learn something new. Does anyone knows how are the emission standard for the US compared to Euro 6d?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/ICCT_comparison%2520Euro%2520v%2520US.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj6y7KalZqBAxXmkWoFHVsoDdwQFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw27ycGkmJ2hH1BIsAcaxQOL

Page 12 at the link seems to indicate the US standards are much more stringent. I find that surprising, but perhaps I've missed some details.

 

[Porter]

If I've interpreted the Tier 3 standards correctly, it looks like they have to be at 30 mg/mi starting in MY 2028. That seems impossible, but maybe they have some tricks up their sleeves. For 2025-2027, I wonder how much the I4 will help. It seems it's based on sales numbers so is it somehow calculated after the fact?

I'm not sure how the Geely parent company thing may factor into all this. I didn't read anything in the standard about electric vehicles.

Yep, 2028 is another cliff for SVMs. I think that's what's behind a lot of the embrace of electrification by sports car manufacturers, even if they are a company that isn't particularly interested in electric cars they're going to have to have them in the mix to be allowed to sell anything.

The sales numbers thing is the audit check. They have to submit a build plan at the beginning, and then verify afterwards what they actually did. If they don't remain in compliance and it wasn't intentional there is a process to get back in compliance, but if it's found to be intentional circumvention of the rules there can be large penalties per vehicle. That's where the big fines for VW came from, for example.

Electric vehicles factor in to the corporate average as "Tier 3 Bin 0" and are still tracked.

 

[Lotustoronto]

I've gone over this previously in this thread, but it's worth revisiting. The EPA's Tier 3 requirements have ratcheted more and more strict for corporate average emissions for NMOG+NOx each year since 2016, culminating in a final (extremely low) requirement for the 2025 Model Year.

Lotus qualifies as a Small Volume Manufacturer (SVM) which means they enjoy a "relaxed" spec for the NMOG+NOx limit at 51 mg/mi, but that''s still a very low figure. And it's one that the last iteration of the Evora (Evora GT, which was last sold in MY 2021) does not meet, it was tested for EPA compliance in Oct 2020 and returned a result over 70 mg/mi. To be specific, the NMOG+NOx tested at 72.9 mg/mi on the federal "average" fuel, and 82.2 mg/mi on the California formulation at 50degF. Those numbers were legal/OK in MY 2021 when the limit for SVMs was still 125 mg/mi, but they are no longer acceptable, the spec changed for SVMs to 51 mg/mi starting in MY22.

So either the Emira has to reduce measured tailpipe emissions by 30% compared to the Evora (which is unlikely), or they have to come up with another way to get the "fleet" average under the target. Which is why I suspect they have delayed the V6 for the US, so they can mix the AMG and V6 production numbers in the same model year to get a better fleet average.

This is what I had thought the whole time as well... the release of the i4 and the push to get people to take this model was made to reduce the overall emissions standard. Sales of ICE / EV will lower the overall emissions further. I had always thought the delay in North America had more to do with this than anything else. Same reason the V6 was never planned for china, emissions is too costly. However EU and other countries are a little different in that they charge the consumer a penalty/tax if purchasing a vehicle with higher emissions. In North America we charge the manufacturer if they don't hit the emissions targets via overall sales.

It is an effective way to push manufacturers to reduce emissions. But also results in these types of delays. I think Lotus will sell more Eletre's than Emira's (probably 5 to 1) so overall once EV deliveries start they won't be very worried about US emissions targets. In fact they may be in a surplus of credits and get to sell off the credits to other manufacturers, like Tesla does.

Tesla’s carbon credit sales soared to $1.78 billion in 2022

Tesla set a new record in carbon credit sales in 2022, generating $1.78 billion in revenue from the sale of credits to other automakers. Find out how the company has positioned itself as a leader in the electric vehicle market and the carbon credit market through its clean energy operations.

www.green.earth

 

[Nova]

I feel if this was the reason for the delays, they could have just told us. All ICE car enthusiasts in the US share an understanding with manufacturers with regard to CARB/EPA rules.

 

[HeReigns]

Do you think its possible that they de tune the horsepower further on the V6? How do Huracan's get thru CARB/EPA today? Those are still pretty rowdy engines. Does it have to do with the valves opening later(4000 Rpm) help the emissions output?

 

[Wiz33]

I was looking at this site, It seems to have the emission spec for all cars sold in UK/EU:

Technical specs, dimensions, fuel consumption of cars

Car and motorcycle specifications database. Information on technical data: engine specs, fuel consumption, economy, size dimensions and vehicle maintenance details

www.ultimatespecs.com

And the CO2 emission of the Emira V6 (258g/Km) is not that much more than a BMW M2 (226g/Km) and certainly less than a Corvette C7 (282g/Km).

 

[kitkat]

I was looking at this site, It seems to have the emission spec for all cars sold in UK/EU:

Technical specs, dimensions, fuel consumption of cars

Car and motorcycle specifications database. Information on technical data: engine specs, fuel consumption, economy, size dimensions and vehicle maintenance details

www.ultimatespecs.com

And the CO2 emission of the Emira V6 (258g/Km) is not that much more than a BMW M2 (226g/Km) or a Corvette C7 (282g/Km).

Won't help you to do 1-1 comparisons, you're missing the bit about the fleet averages.

 

[Wiz33]

Won't help you to do 1-1 comparisons, you're missing the bit about the fleet averages.

But how does fleet average work for a manufacturer like Lamborghini? I don't think any of their model produce less than 300g/Km or for that matter same thing can be said about Ferrari?

 

[KCMO68_510]

But how does fleet average work for a manufacturer like Lamborghini? I don't think any of their model produce less than 300g/Km or for that matter same thing can be said about Ferrari?

Someone may know the exact answer, but I'm going to guess it has a lot to do with how the businesses are structured. Like Lamborghini rolls up through VW USA, Ferrari through Fiat-Chrysler USA.

Geely owns Lotus and Volvo, so I feel like they could do something similar with offsets, but a key difference I see is that Fiat-Chrysler and VW exist in the United States, and Geely itself does not. So maybe that is part of the difference.

This is pure speculation, as I'm not positive this is right, but feel like this could be part of it.

 

[Wiz33]

Someone may know the exact answer, but I'm going to guess it has a lot to do with how the businesses are structured. Like Lamborghini rolls up through VW USA, Ferrari through Fiat-Chrysler USA.

Geely owns Lotus and Volvo, so I feel like they could do something similar with offsets, but a key difference I see is that Fiat-Chrysler and VW exist in the United States, and Geely itself does not. So maybe that is part of the difference.

This is pure speculation, as I'm not positive this is right, but feel like this could be part of it.

Or they're just buying CARB credit from Tesla which mean Lotus can do the same if needed given their relationship with Tesla. In that case the V6 will make it to the US. no matter what.

 

[Hell4Leather]

I've gone over this previously in this thread, but it's worth revisiting. The EPA's Tier 3 requirements have ratcheted more and more strict for corporate average emissions for NMOG+NOx each year since 2016, culminating in a final (extremely low) requirement for the 2025 Model Year.

Lotus qualifies as a Small Volume Manufacturer (SVM) which means they enjoy a "relaxed" spec for the NMOG+NOx limit at 51 mg/mi, but that''s still a very low figure. And it's one that the last iteration of the Evora (Evora GT, which was last sold in MY 2021) does not meet, it was tested for EPA compliance in Oct 2020 and returned a result over 70 mg/mi. To be specific, the NMOG+NOx tested at 72.9 mg/mi on the federal "average" fuel, and 82.2 mg/mi on the California formulation at 50degF. Those numbers were legal/OK in MY 2021 when the limit for SVMs was still 125 mg/mi, but they are no longer acceptable, the spec changed for SVMs to 51 mg/mi starting in MY22.

So either the Emira has to reduce measured tailpipe emissions by 30% compared to the Evora (which is unlikely), or they have to come up with another way to get the "fleet" average under the target. Which is why I suspect they have delayed the V6 for the US, so they can mix the AMG and V6 production numbers in the same model year to get a better fleet average.

Will the addition of the electric sedan and SUV affect the total fleet or is by style, Emira coup, Electra SUV, etc?

 

[KCMO68_510]

Will the addition of the electric sedan and SUV affect the total fleet or is by style, Emira coup, Electra SUV, etc?

Should be by the brand, not the individual vehicle.

 

[Porter]

Will the addition of the electric sedan and SUV affect the total fleet or is by style, Emira coup, Electra SUV, etc?

Total fleet of light duty vehicles produced for US sale in a particular "production" year, which is a Model Year system not strictly tied to calendar year. Unique to US and Canada.

 

[Porter]

But how does fleet average work for a manufacturer like Lamborghini? I don't think any of their model produce less than 300g/Km or for that matter same thing can be said about Ferrari?

Corporate fleet for Lamborghini likely includes all of VW. And Ferrari's corporate fleet includes all of FCA, even though they only own 22% of Ferrari.

Lotus doesn't have a close business relationship like that with a major US-sold brand. The relationship with Volvo is too distant and doesn't count the same way.

 

[John777]

But how does fleet average work for a manufacturer like Lamborghini? I don't think any of their model produce less than 300g/Km or for that matter same thing can be said about Ferrari?

VW/Audi owns Lamborghini so thats how.. Audi models produce less emissions.

 

[Maurice R]

It’s been awfully quiet about NA production.
Does anyone know anything even if it’s BS give us a hint so we can all bitch a little.
Or is no news good news.
Maybe the first delivery batch has already been shipped or shipping soooon but it’s a surprise or not being shipped till Jan 2 2024
The minute I hear my car is on the way I will drink a bottle of the best Scotch I have