So is it a great car?

[Pegasi]

I am not a big comparison person. I like the difference of sports cars. How boring would it be if sports cars were all similar. To say I love the Lotus doesn't mean I can't love a Mustang GT. I am like a car harem guy, I love them all! But any mid engine, manual, reasonably price sports car will always be a winner in my book.

It's very possible in 5 years you will have:

V6 Manual
V6 Auto
I4 DCT
V6 Manual / V6 Auto Lighter More Power
I4 DCT Lighter More Power

That line up will be one of the greatest sports car offerings of all time. And by great, I mean cars that people buy and drive. I love a garage queen, but people are gonna be driving the Emira.

 

[Leonard]

Which again brings it back to: how does it compare to Evora?

Yup and that's the M2 CS not the std Comp.
I think the Emira should probably be considered an Evora restomod and then it can be excused having the performance of a car from 2016

 

[Leonard]

The curse of the weight of expectations ... and a long wait.

Firstly, it looks like a supercar. This has helped bring in a lot of potential new customers. But it's also created an expectation with customers, current Lotus owners and journalists that it performs like a junior supercar. Perhaps an unrealistic expectation, but the "Lotus the plucky underdog might just pull this off" mindset is in play.

Secondly, people think it should move the game on significantly from the Evora. The Elise and Evora showed what talented, ingenious people could do with a tiny budget and a short timeframe (27 months from funding approval to launch for Evora). Both cars wowed the press and customers, set new standards and won awards. With Emira we saw Geely bring huge extra cash investment, new hires, better facilities and access to cross-group expertise and parts and suppliers. We were excited the development team had a clear shot at designing the best ever Lotus. A lot of evidence pointed to that, with a major evolution of the Evora chassis to take account of 12 years of learning, open access to every Geely team and part but no requirement to use any, free choice of the second engine, free choice of tyre partner etc etc. We even had Gavan enthusing about it being "the Evora dialled up to 11".

But that step change in performance many hoped for isn't what we're seeing in reviews and customer feedback. It's a great drivers car, but it seems to be Evora-ish not Evora-plus. Slightly down on power, slightly down on redline, slightly higher on emissions, slightly less raucous on exhaust noise, slightly less sure-footed in some scenarios.

The big step changes have clearly been in exterior styling, interior design and technology, daily usability, quality (design, build, reliability) and meeting an attractive price point. I know and have huge respect for the project team, but it feels like the performance factor has only been taken as far as "good enough and still Lotus" rather than "wow, that's what Lotus can achieve with major backing from a new owner".

This seems to be the same hint of expectations not being met that we're seeing in some of the reviews.

It'll be a great car and the best car Lotus has ever built. Looking forward to a proper test drive and hoping I'm proved wrong about the expectation-reality gap.

Spot on

 

[Leonard]

I am not a big comparison person. I like the difference of sports cars. How boring would it be if sports cars were all similar. To say I love the Lotus doesn't mean I can't love a Mustang GT. I am like a car harem guy, I love them all! But any mid engine, manual, reasonably price sports car will always be a winner in my book.

It's very possible in 5 years you will have:

V6 Manual
V6 Auto
I4 DCT
V6 Manual / V6 Auto Lighter More Power
I4 DCT Lighter More Power

That line up will be one of the greatest sports car offerings of all time. And by great, I mean cars that people buy and drive. I love a garage queen, but people are gonna be driving the Emira.

That's some statement, I'm not totally convinced
If when you say drive you mean mooch around in posing then yes you may have point.
On the flip side the i4 could easily turn into the next A45 AMG or Golf R and ring with it all of the connotations those cars have when they hit the used market after a couple of years

 

[Pegasi]

That's some statement, I'm not totally convinced
If when you say drive you mean mooch around in posing then yes you may have point.
On the flip side the i4 could easily turn into the next A45 AMG or Golf R and ring with it all of the connotations those cars have when they hit the used market after a couple of years

There are certain things I post over and over. One of them is the statement that Russell Carr made last year about Lotus being able to hold secrets. He said they can keep things secret better that the military (paraphrasing).

If Lotus can penetrate the non car enthusiast crowd they will be able to sustain strong growth. Another Lotus employee said that if people don't see Lotus cars on the road, they won't come into the dealership. Lotus cannot make the mistake of making another uncompromised car. Therefore the Emira needs to be soft and inviting. The big glaring hole I see is all the complaints about the handling, yet Lotus is the premier handling/chassis experts in the world. You don't make an Evora and then make a mistake when you make an Emira. It's supposed to be what it is. Gavan knows exactly how the car handles and how it will be perceived.

Here is the timeline:

Exige, Evora awesome handling low sales.
Emira soft and inviting but still Lotus tremendous sales.
Car enthusiast uproar
Secret secret secret.
Emira uncompromised variant.
Mission complete, a sports car for everyone and reasonably affordable.

Based on Lotus's past I don't think my statement is really a big stretch.

 

[Pegasi]

I root for all small car manufacturers, such as Alfa Romeo, & Lotus, to be successful. I think they bring great options into the sports car world.

 

[VL3X]

The whole tuned down Evora thing really bothers me. I just can't wrap my mind around this and why Lotus would release their new flagship sportscar with less power than the outgoing models. Just imagine how happy and excited we'd all be if the production Emira drops with the 7200 redline, more power, and actual dynos higher than anyone expected! I know.. Why would anything positive happen for us? But it's a possibility!

Just check out this recent dyno chart comparing the new Supra to the new Z. The Z is advertised at 400HP crank and the Supra at 382 IIRC. The Supra threw down 397/423 at the wheels!! That's insane.

So let's say the Emira is advertised at 400HP at the crank. How much drivetrain loss is there typically in a mid-engine setup? Like 10%? So I'd expect the wheel number to be closer to 360-370WHP... Imagine if customers start testing Emiras just to find they're underrated and actually putting down ~400WHP.

 

[NicolasB]

”Comparison is the thief of joy.” – Theodore Roosevelt

 

[kitkat]

The whole tuned down Evora thing really bothers me. I just can't wrap my mind around this and why Lotus would release their new flagship sportscar with less power than the outgoing models. Just imagine how happy and excited we'd all be if the production Emira drops with the 7200 redline, more power, and actual dynos higher than anyone expected! I know.. Why would anything positive happen for us? But it's a possibility!

Just check out this recent dyno chart comparing the new Supra to the new Z. The Z is advertised at 400HP crank and the Supra at 382 IIRC. The Supra threw down 397/423 at the wheels!! That's insane.

So let's say the Emira is advertised at 400HP at the crank. How much drivetrain loss is there typically in a mid-engine setup? Like 10%? So I'd expect the wheel number to be closer to 360-370WHP... Imagine if customers start testing Emiras just to find they're underrated and actually putting down ~400WHP.

View attachment 8175

The Evora GT was 340-360whp depending on the dyno and conditions. Around 360whp on a dynojet which are usually on the higher side. I'd expect the Emira to be ~330-350whp.

And then when you compare it to the new Supra there's a +100 lbs difference a decent chunk more power and far more torque.

 

[Eagle7]

The whole tuned down Evora thing really bothers me. I just can't wrap my mind around this and why Lotus would release their new flagship sportscar with less power than the outgoing models. Just imagine how happy and excited we'd all be if the production Emira drops with the 7200 redline, more power, and actual dynos higher than anyone expected! I know.. Why would anything positive happen for us? But it's a possibility!

Just check out this recent dyno chart comparing the new Supra to the new Z. The Z is advertised at 400HP crank and the Supra at 382 IIRC. The Supra threw down 397/423 at the wheels!! That's insane.

So let's say the Emira is advertised at 400HP at the crank. How much drivetrain loss is there typically in a mid-engine setup? Like 10%? So I'd expect the wheel number to be closer to 360-370WHP... Imagine if customers start testing Emiras just to find they're underrated and actually putting down ~400WHP.

View attachment 8175

Dyno charts aren't the be-all end-all people think they are. They can vary quite a bit depending on the dyno, the operator, and conditions when it was run. They're mostly useful if you're modding, and want to see what difference your mods are making. This works as long as you're going to the same place under comparable conditions to get your dyno readings.

For modders, your first run should be without any mods so you have a baseline for comparison. Then you can get additional runs after making your mods to see what difference they're actually making. That's the main value of dyno runs in my opinion.

If you're just looking to see what your car is getting to the wheels, a dyno run will give you a general idea, but you can literally go from one shop to another, then another, and each shop will show different results. It's fun to see an actual number, but don't be misled in thinking any particular dyno run is an absolute. It's a general number for that particular dyno and operator, on that particular day and time it was run.

I may do it for my Emira once it gets past the first 1,000 miles, before I do the gear oil change. Then again afterwards for a comparison. In the past on cars I've owned, I've seen a gain of anywhere from 9 to 15 hp with improved oils.

Something else to consider about the Emira. It looks like the top power was 'lowered' by lowering the top rpm; not by detuning the engine, so it should be the same below redline as the Evora. This is where a dyno for the Emira will be interesting, to see if that is indeed the case.

 

[Leonard]

The whole tuned down Evora thing really bothers me. I just can't wrap my mind around this and why Lotus would release their new flagship sportscar with less power than the outgoing models. Just imagine how happy and excited we'd all be if the production Emira drops with the 7200 redline, more power, and actual dynos higher than anyone expected! I know.. Why would anything positive happen for us? But it's a possibility!

Just check out this recent dyno chart comparing the new Supra to the new Z. The Z is advertised at 400HP crank and the Supra at 382 IIRC. The Supra threw down 397/423 at the wheels!! That's insane.

So let's say the Emira is advertised at 400HP at the crank. How much drivetrain loss is there typically in a mid-engine setup? Like 10%? So I'd expect the wheel number to be closer to 360-370WHP... Imagine if customers start testing Emiras just to find they're underrated and actually putting down ~400WHP.

View attachment 8175

Yup I don't get it.
It really wouldn't have taken much to make the Emira a more powerful, sharper more useable Evora. And cost Lotus nothing

 

[Guest142]

Yup I don't get it.
It really wouldn't have taken much to make the Emira a more powerful, sharper more useable Evora. And cost Lotus nothing

I could be totally wrong on this but I'm assuming it was done for two reasons.

1. Lotus wanted to make a less raw car to appeal to more customers.
2. Based on dynamics it may have made the car a bit too dangerous and difficult to control.

Again, I could be wrong.

It has plenty of power for my intended use (not going to track it at all). Also, I really like the fact that Lotus seems to have struck a very good balance of performance, comfort, and safety.

 

[Magicman]

The curse of the weight of expectations ... and a long wait.

Firstly, it looks like a supercar. This has helped bring in a lot of potential new customers. But it's also created an expectation with customers, current Lotus owners and journalists that it performs like a junior supercar. Perhaps an unrealistic expectation, but the "Lotus the plucky underdog might just pull this off" mindset is in play.

Secondly, people think it should move the game on significantly from the Evora. The Elise and Evora showed what talented, ingenious people could do with a tiny budget and a short timeframe (27 months from funding approval to launch for Evora). Both cars wowed the press and customers, set new standards and won awards. With Emira we saw Geely bring huge extra cash investment, new hires, better facilities and access to cross-group expertise and parts and suppliers. We were excited the development team had a clear shot at designing the best ever Lotus. A lot of evidence pointed to that, with a major evolution of the Evora chassis to take account of 12 years of learning, open access to every Geely team and part but no requirement to use any, free choice of the second engine, free choice of tyre partner etc etc. We even had Gavan enthusing about it being "the Evora dialled up to 11".

But that step change in performance many hoped for isn't what we're seeing in reviews and customer feedback. It's a great drivers car, but it seems to be Evora-ish not Evora-plus. Slightly down on power, slightly down on redline, slightly higher on emissions, slightly less raucous on exhaust noise, slightly less sure-footed in some scenarios.

The big step changes have clearly been in exterior styling, interior design and technology, daily usability, quality (design, build, reliability) and meeting an attractive price point. I know and have huge respect for the project team, but it feels like the performance factor has only been taken as far as "good enough and still Lotus" rather than "wow, that's what Lotus can achieve with major backing from a new owner".

This seems to be the same hint of expectations not being met that we're seeing in some of the reviews.

It'll be a great car and the best car Lotus has ever built. Looking forward to a proper test drive and hoping I'm proved wrong about the expectation-reality gap.

100%

 

[VL3X]

The Evora GT was 340-360whp depending on the dyno and conditions. Around 360whp on a dynojet which are usually on the higher side. I'd expect the Emira to be ~330-350whp.

Geeze.. that's pretty pathetic honestly. My GTI stock was advertised with something like 230HP and actually dynoed 250WHP bone stock. So it sounds like Lotus actually overrates their vehicles?

 

[VL3X]

2. Based on dynamics it may have made the car a bit too dangerous and difficult to control.

No way. I haven't met an Evora owner who wished theirs didn't have just a little more power.

 

[VL3X]

Dyno charts aren't the be-all end-all people think they are. They can vary quite a bit depending on the dyno, the operator, and conditions when it was run.

Agreed. I just posted to show how the Supra is actually underrated from the factory. Both those runs were done on the same dyno on the same day.

And I just hope the Emira is underrated, but apparently not based on the feedback about the Evora dynos. Sounds like the Emira will be overrated if anything.

 

[TomE]

I could be totally wrong on this but I'm assuming it was done for two reasons.

1. Lotus wanted to make a less raw car to appeal to more customers.
2. Based on dynamics it may have made the car a bit too dangerous and difficult to control.

Again, I could be wrong.

It has plenty of power for my intended use (not going to track it at all). Also, I really like the fact that Lotus seems to have struck a very good balance of performance, comfort, and safety.

I don't think taking 10hp off the power and 200rpm off the redline would have a big impact on those two aspects, even if they were part of the Lotus game plan.

I think they de-tuned it to meet emissions. Anyone in the UK who has checked the configurator over the last two months may have spotted the on the road costs have gone up slightly. This is because the emissions-based VED fee has gone up, because the actual emissions measured during type approval are actually ABOVE the target figure.

Please Lotus, can we now have our de-tuned power and redline back!

 

[2Lotus]

I don't think taking 10hp off the power and 200rpm off the redline would have a big impact on those two aspects, even if they were part of the Lotus game plan.

I think they de-tuned it to meet emissions. Anyone in the UK who has checked the configurator over the last two months may have spotted the on the road costs have gone up slightly. This is because the emissions-based VED fee has gone up, because the actual emissions measured during type approval are actually ABOVE the target figure.

Please Lotus, can we now have our de-tuned power and redline back!

Since cars built in calendar year 2023 will be titled 2024 will they have to re-due Type approval for UK and Emissions for the US?

 

[Maurice R]

No way. I haven't met an Evora owner who wished theirs didn't have just a little more power.

Agree

 

[TomE]

Geeze.. that's pretty pathetic honestly. My GTI stock was advertised with something like 230HP and actually dynoed 250WHP bone stock. So it sounds like Lotus actually overrates their vehicles?

Lotus do seem to state optimistic stats. My Evora S was dyno'd when about 2 years old and measured 318 (corrected) versus 345 published. Another S owner had very similar results and I've heard of others getting nearer 325/330 but no closer to 345. Some simple improvements, like air filter, have got people to 345.

I've seen Evora 400s measuring around 390. I've not seen more recent figures for GT410 and GT430. I've seen cars with the Komotec 430/450/475 upgrades deliver the numbers.